Telescope Sighting No. 32 Mk II

I have had a couple requests for pic's of the scope markings on the Mk II's, so here they are for all to enjoy.

Per the data and observations available makers and s/n range:

Kershaw Ltd. 8000-9599
HBM Co. 10220-11999
W. Watson 12000-14999
Kershaw Ltd 15000-16499
Vickers 1-565 (Mk 2/1)
REL 475-C – 650-C

Early Vickers Mk 2/1 scopes bear the OS1650A Mk II markings but are set up as Mk 2/1’s. I have yet to find a Vickers Mk II, if someone has one please speak up. I have also not yet found a converted Mk 2/1 fitted to a matching rifle, hopefully there are some out there to find one day.

What a beautiful collection lance... Thanks for sharing!

A very nice collection you have there Lance! I never thought I'd feel inadequate having two No.4(T) rifles in my collection but logging in here has a way of making this happen.
Thanks for the great photos!

I have Watson 14825 manufactured as a Mk2 with a /1 engraved alongside the II. The 1650 is barred out and over engraved 1400GA. With matching rifle

Also have in my grubby little mitts another Mk2/1(W) waterproof spec Watson that is marked similarly but also engraved under the marking is BW-S 9-69. No rifle and bracket but came from a bunch of ex Indian scopes, presumably ex British Far Eastern stocks

"BW-S" is decoded as?

Thanks Lance, a nice selection. Perhaps you, Peter or one of the other knowledgeable collectors can scratch an itch I've had over the No32 serial numbering sequence for some years. None of us will ever see everything & must inevitably have huge gaps in our knowledge, but the number of No32's that have gone through my hands over the ears now is.....quite a few.....but I have never seen one serialled in the 12 or 13,000 range. They've always jumped from 11thousand-odd to 14thousand-odd. Have many people got scopes serialled 12thousand & something or thirteenthousand & something?
Peter, with the log you keep of the scopes you've worked on have there been many/any in this range? I had always presumed that I just never happened on one of these, but eventually you start to wonder.....could there be a gap in the s/n range?

ATB to one and all.

PS & I'm guessing Peter but could BW-S be Base Workshops Singapore, by any chance?

ATB

Lance,
Just did a quick inventory. Unfortunately being a technophobe I haven't yet mastered how to post pictures, but I just checked the serials of my Mk2's, FWIW.
9, 189, 296 --- UIC's. No 189 is built on a converted Mk1 tube with the Mk1 markings altered.
556-C 1944 REL
8884, 9172 1943 mfr.
11371 HBMCo
15934, 15940, 16015, 16192. All 1944 mfr.
Mk2/1 43 --- UIC mfr.

Have you had any in the 12K/13K range?

ATB

Greetings Roger

No I have never seen any in the 12-13K range and was just thinking about that when I did this posting. I wonder if Peter could look in his repair logs to see if he has ever had one run through. Plus maybe Peter could you take a pic or two of your Watson 2/1 with rifle so I can dream..... Roger, we also have to get you a camera or I will have to invite myself over!!

Missing 2000ish Mk II scopes would be very significant to the collecting world. Maybe the were assigned to a yet unknown company that got bombed out or never got off the ground??

It might also explain the 1944 dated Mk I scopes by Watson in the early 14,300 range and drastically decreasing the quantity of Watson Mk II's to less than 1000. I know I have seen very few Watson Mk II scopes and keep kicking myself for not picking up a '44 Watson Mk I on a '44 BSA a couple years back. (anyone got one they want to part with??)

I also have in my records that Kershaw Mk II 9335 is 1944 dated and with your 9172 being 1943 it narrows down the date change over to within 150ish. Plus scope # 9551 is a HBM Mk I that still is paired with its rifle that I was outbid on twice last years...damn it. I do not know if there was a contract s/n over lap in the 9500-600 range with Kershaw, anyone ever seen a Kershaw Mk II with a s/n higher that 9335?

Lance,
Yep. I have had a couple of late Mk1's (44 dated by Watson), but foolishly let them go, thinking 'another one will always come along'.....but then sellers discovered fleabay....

The only consolation was one of them helped to get me my PPCo rifle so I guess it's swings & roundabouts...

Peter....any ideas on these 12-13K No32's??

ATB

Mmmmmm, interesting querie but they certainly DO exist. I have seven Watsons recorded between 12276 and 13980. Strangely, 13190 and 13980 are both Mk1's! There are Watson 14's by the bucketfull from 141xx to 149xx and the first of these, up to 144xx have plenty of Mk1's spread amongst them. The last Mk1 in that 14 batch is 146xx. They are scarce though because of the many thousands I have recorded that I have worked on in the past, it's made me realise that these are few and far between compared with the remainder.

What is strange, and prompted by these comments is that several of this 14xxx batch, including 14593 definately HAS been re-engraved over the earlier very light engraving because even though it's been phosphated and painted, you can still see some earlier markings including another serial number(?) under the not-quite-straight 14593.

As a matter of interest, on the UIC Mk2/1,s, the Mk3 drum type index plate was retained to the turret housing by cheeseheaded 8BA screws. The same (?) drums were held to the Mk3 turret by countersunk/self centreing screws.

I can see this thread taking off somehow.................

Just checked my 2/1, never noticed, learned a lot today!! Thanks

Well there you go.....they DO exist, but there doesn't seem to be many of them does there? I wonder why?

Peter, presumably the cheese head screws on the 2/1 would be a follow on from the Mk2.....?

ATB

Sorry last comment on last post sounds daft.....what I meant was it would presumably be explicable because they used the same index plates on the 2/1 as on the Mk2 ???.......but they were then modified to countersunk holes for the Mk3.
ATB

On the subject of UIC, indicating United Instruments, it was a joint group of small independent instrument companies that usually worked as small-time sub contractors for the big TTH's, CTS's etc etc around the Country. A bit like Houghton Butcher, that came together for the war but UIC was 'controlled/directed' by the giant Vickers company. The Vickers archivist told me recently that the reason UIC didn't succeed as did HBM, was was that it encompassed so many small firms that each thought that they were missing out a bit on their chunk of the work. HC Ryland or HCR (of Scout Reg Telescope fame...., or infamy due to the fact that nothing in their telescopes was ever interchangeable, even among their OWN stuff!) were one of the small companies..... So they went their separate ways, touting for any instrument business that they could get........ Several of them can be seen today as the odds and sods companies whose initials and logos can be seen on the simple No 42 and 53 telescopes. HHS was one such company who were part of UIC and who also made lenses for CTS. Anyone know of any of the others. All long gone now

There, another little bit of not-quite Lee Enfield history that you never knew until now!

UIC index plates, made for production Mk2/1 telescopes have cheeseheaded/bored screw holes
Mk3 standardised index plates are identical in silhouette but have countersunk screw holes. Reason given below

It's getting technical now - but you CAN use a Mk3 index plate to repair a needy Mk1 or 2 range or deflection drum providing you use a .035" (I seem to remember) spacer/washer between the plate and the drum head shaft. From this you will realise that Mk1 and 2 index plates are NOT interchangable with the Mk2/1 and Mk3

It is this very querie that lead me to the answer above concerning UIC. Because the CT&S/Vickers drawing of the Mk3 index plate shows it having been drawn by UIC and having cheeseheaded/bored retaining screw holes! Confirming the CT&S, Vickers and UIC connection!

The REASON why the UIC Mk3 type index plate was recessed for cheeseheaded screws was in order to be able to centralise the deflection lead screw shaft over the screwhole in the deflection cursor (it's getting anorakish now.....). Not necessary with the cheaper and simpler production Mk3 because in the Mk3, the lead screw screwed a nut up or down onto a spring loaded graticle block. Simple.............. Phew!

You must be blessed with a gift for teaching because I actually managed to follow it!

ATB

It's years of writing EMER's. Any wiggle room was frowned upon too - as were words like 'gently swage' or 'tighten until tight' or 'a degree of loosness is acceptable'. Correcting others work was also a minefield too as any of you teachers will appreciate!

Hi All,

I saw this thread just now and thought I would add some pics of my No 32 Telescope: Serial No. 13998, Manufacturer W. Watson, 1943. Can one trace the history of this scope, for instance where it did service, if any, and how it ended up in South Africa?

Attachment 21796

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lance

I have had a couple requests for pic's of the scope markings on the Mk II's, so here they are for all to enjoy.

Per the data and observations available makers and s/n range:

Kershaw Ltd. 8000-9599
HBM Co. 10220-11999
W. Watson 12000-14999
Kershaw Ltd 15000-16499
Vickers 1-565 (Mk 2/1)
REL 475-C – 650-C

Early Vickers Mk 2/1 scopes bear the OS1650A Mk II markings but are set up as Mk 2/1’s. I have yet to find a Vickers Mk II, if someone has one please speak up. I have also not yet found a converted Mk 2/1 fitted to a matching rifle, hopefully there are some out there to find one day.

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I was reading through this old thread and noticed that the REL MkII's began with 475-C

Then I checked my scopes and found this:

Attachment 137501

So, could this be the first ever REL MkII made?

Perfection. This thread precisely answers my query in https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=80499, so thanks much, Roy, for resurrecting it!

Plus, as with almost all Milsurps threads, it expands my knowledge base. What a great place to be a member.

TJ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roy W

I was reading through this old thread and noticed that the REL MkII's began with 475-C

Then I checked my scopes and found this:

Attachment 137501

So, could this be the first ever REL MkII made?

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Greetings Roy

It is close, since my original post I have found the lowest REL Mk II scope to be 471-C,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lance

Greetings Roy

It is close, since my original post I have found the lowest REL Mk II scope to be 471-C,

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:super: