New Long Lee, did I over pay?

My first venture into the Longs. Read a little about them just enough to be dangerous. I always liked them, and this one turned up at a small local show and I thought it looked ok so I bought it for $800. It's a Mk I and dated 1896 with NZ 1903 on the butt plate. Is that the date it was transfered to New Zeland? It's well used but the worst thing is when I got home, I discovered the bolt was not matching. I can't believe I forgot to check that. Anyway, I had asked the seller, who was a private walk in person, if it was all correct or if anything was wrong with it, he said as far as he kew it was all ok. I obtained his name and address and the last thing I confirmed with him was that if it wasn't, I would be contacting him about it and he agreed. So I could probably return it if I wanted to. Does anyone see any other problems with it? Ray

I think you did Ok there. Its got all the bits that are often knocked around and gone, like the volley sights, a complete example is not common.. Its also kind of rare to find one that hasn't been sporterized.
HG = Home Guard, so before civilian sale it saw duty as a home defence rifle, most probably when the Japs were sending recon planes over Auckland from their long range subs, a little thing called ww2. We really needed every rifle we had, so this was far from being a junker reluctantly being used.
1903, hmm, not sure, it could be when it was pulled from stores and issued to a unit, it is a NZ stamp. 18439 is the rifle rack number.
It is nice to have the round front magazine and especially the little clip that usually is tossed away.
I've seen these with much higher prices, if you're in the US. If you browse gunbroker.com you can get an idea of US prices on enfields. Are you in the US?

Check the bore for, rust, dark color, wear on the rifling. Most here in NZ have a lot of wear in the rifling and are dark in the bore from lack of cleaning the corrosive stuff out. Don't be surprised if the barrel is dated from a no1 mk3, barrels were shot through and the were guns rebarreled 1-2-3 times. If you have an original barrel with little wear you did real good.

Not bad at all, cheers R NZ

Thanks RNZ, yes I'm in the US. The barrel has been replaced also as it has a different number, #3253. It looks more like a "C" then a "G", Ray

You never pay too much for a collectible you want or need..you just MIGHT buy a bit too early. Unless you are looking to flip it within the week:....... enjoy
Now, buy a book.

I really don't mind buying a rifle w/ minor dramas if its got a good bore and is otherwise shootable. Saves money and I don't feel bad taking it out and USING it. The pretty ones can get annoying what w/ all the pampering and all, just to save it for an uncertain future.

Ray, if you want to get your money back out of it and a little bit more. I'll take it off of your hands. Fred

Well, I bought another Long Lee from the guy. And I am one happy guy with this one. Met the gentleman and bought a 2nd Long Lee he told me about also. From what I can see it is as good as he described it with about 95% original bluing. The stock looks like it has had a stock finish applied to it but it looks good though and I'm sure it can be removed if one wanted to. It's all matching including the barrel. The bore needs to be cleaned but looks like it will clean up to about VG or better. The only question I have is that it has what appears to be the stamp of a dealer or importer, (doesn't look like a US one), in small letters on the receiver. They're real small and kind of hard to read but they look like ENGLAND stamped over "B.D. L. LTD EOGEFIELD SO, Possibly the rifle was sold by the government into civilian sales in England. There are no other import/export stamps like the tons proofs etc on it. The price was $1150. It did not have the cleaning rod when I bought it but the guy said he has one on another Long Lee if I wanted it for $50, of course I took it. He brought the other LL to show me also but I was running out of money and told him I will get back to him on it later.
Two days ago I didn't have a single Long Lee, now I have two. Not too bad, Ray

It wouldnt be BDL Ltd Edgefield South carolina would it ?
BDL LTD Rifles and Accessories

Brian - care to comment ?

Ray, I imported that rifle back in October 1997 from Canada. It was from a large Lee Enfield collection I purchased in Western Ontario. The original owner most likely sent it to a well known Gunsmith in Ontario who cleaned and finished the wood. Many of the rifles in that particular collection had seen his hand. Nice rifle! Love and cherish it. Brian

P.S. My mark is B.D.L. LTD. EDGEFIELD SC. ENGLAND is the country of manufacture stamp.

Thanks Brian, I forgot that was your stamp. I figured it came from Canada as it didn't have the "18 Tons etc" English proof stamps. It sure is a nice rifle, Ray

Ray, when you inserterd the cleaning rod into the rifle, did it screw into the threads of the rod stop nut or has the rod stop nut been removed? I just had a man make me two rods for those missing on two of my rifles. He had to make a couple of rod stop nuts for them to thread into as well because the originals had been removed. Although they are CLLE's, they had the empty rod channels which were sas to look at and so I now have the rods in them even though they shouldn't have nay technicly. But, They DO look nice! Congradulations on your two Long Lee's. they look really great. One of mine also has a miss matched bolt, but I don't care. Now you have to get at least one more so that you can stack them together by the swivels. I started out getting one and I now have four. It seems that I've got Enfielditis for sure! I paid any where from 1,150 to 1,500 dollars for them. I consider them worth it.
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Hi Fred, yes the cleaning rod screwed in the rifle. The fellow took the rod out of the gun he brought and gave it to me and I put it in the rifle I just bought from him. Of note though, the nut was evidently missing from the rifle he took the rod out of also as the rod wasn't screwed in nor could it be.
I saw your posts when you got your rifles and it was responsible for me wishing I had one as they looked so good.
About getting a 3rd one, I have been seriously thinking about buying the one the guy still has but haven't quite convinced myself yet. Some thing to do about money. It has a mis matched bolt also. Ray

Ray, Though the rifle may have a mismatched bolt, it still has collector value. The rifle of mine that has the letters painted on the stock KWC and the number 73 on the other side has a mismatched bolt. However, I was told by an advanced collector that such occurences happened to rifles used by cadets at a college and is no big deal. In this case King Williams College on The Isle Of Man where the rifle was used after it became obsolete for regular military service. I think that a matching bolt is really just a collectors thing anyway and really doesn't detract from the rifle. When rifles were used in the field for long periods of time, parts were mixed by men and ordinance workers. If there were other parts that were numbered like on a Mauser, we'd probably see even more parts mixed. My 1914 dated GEW 98 mauser retrieved from a trench in the Somme by my wifes father in law in the Great War has a lot of mixed parts on it. It was being used by the German soldiers that way when it was obtained by a yank before it could be put back into service again by the Germans.
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A Mauser collector offered to swap my mixed parts for identicle parts from him that had the last two numbers of my receiver and bolt, but I declined, The rifle went through several trips to the ordinance unit and was put back into service again and I wanted to keep it just as it was found in the trenches. Ironicly, I feel that most Mausers from the Great War that retained all of their original parts throughout the war probably didn't see much combat
I was lucky in finding two Charger Loading Lee Enfields and an original Mk I* and a Mk I with it's original rod. The CLLE with the stenciled letters on the stock and the MkI* have bores that are clean but are noticebly more worn than the other two which have practicaly unused bores. I can feel the difference when I run a cleaning patch on a rod down them. Not quite as tight. However they have good rifling and I don't consider them to be any less desirable and I'm happy to own them. If you get a chance to obtain the third rifle, I wouldn't put it off. It seems that the rifles infrequently show up for sale and are usually from another collection. They don't walk into the gun shows for sale hardly at all and I can't remember when one has for about fifteen years at the Missouri Valley 700 table antique arms collector show in Kansas CIty. It was being carried by a guy who was asking $850 for it then. I haven't seen one since. They might not be rare, but they aren't common enough to ignore if one wants them. If you DO get the 3rd rifle, I know of a Scottsman who lives in Germany who machines cleaning rods that are a perfect match to the originals and he'll also make a rod stop nut for you threaded to match what that particular rifle originaly had. Lee Speed patent or Govt. contract. I like having at least three to stack togehter, The fourth has no stacking swivel because it is a custom target rifle and was owned by someone who didn't want it stacked together with others. If you can afford to go out on a limb for awhile and will just need to tighten your belt a little for a few weeks until you have enough to splurge again, I'd get the 3rd rifle. They only go up in price. How much was he asking for it?

Well I took the NZ one out to the range today with some SA, Mk VII military ammo just to try it out. Here are nine shots I fired at 50 yrds after the first rd was fired to test the rifle. The three low shots were my sloppy sighting errors. The tight group is were I concentrated more. Not bad for the old girl and my old eyes that have difficulty seeing the sight vs target at 50 yrds. I didn't try to adjust the sights, just wanted to see what kind of a group it would shoot. Ray

Nice Ray, real nice! when you fired the rifle with the Mk VII ammo, was the bolt ever hard to open? Fred

Ray, here's the rifle that I'd like to shoot to test it's accuracy, but I've been hesitant about using the Mk VII ammo from pakistan in it. I do have some South African 303 that's cordite. I'm not sure if that would be safe either. Anyone know? The rifle is competition grade and it' sports a Parker 9G target sight with 6 peep holes of different sizes that can be dialed into place. I wish I could shoot it safely. The rifle has a mint bore that seems to have seen very little use if any. I'd hate to ruin it.
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Fred that is one beautiful rifle. That stock finish looks like the same finish that is on mine that came out of that large collection in Canada and imported by Brian Dick. Does it have his import stamp on the small flat just in front of the bolt?
I had no problem with the bolt and the ammo showed no excessive presures. The NZ rifle is a well used gun but it had no problems with the ammo. I shot South African ammo. I had shot some pakistan ammo in one of my other guns a few years ago and it was real bad as it had delayed ignition, it was click bang.
These Long Lees were used well into the MkVII period and shot with that ammo for years. I researched it before I shot mine and every thing I read, stated the MkVII ammo is safe to shoot in the Long Lees as the chamber pressure of the MKVII ammo is well within the capabilty of the Long Lees action to handle.
The ammo is probably corrosive but presents no problem as you just clean it property using water to disolve the corrosive salts. I use a mixure of water and ammonia very wet down the bore to disolve the salts follewed by Hoppies then a oiled patch, Ray

Ray, no there is no import stamp there or anywhere that I can see. The collector that I bought the rifle from was known to have traveled to New Zealand and probably England too where he would obtain rifles. Also, he might've obtained it from "within the network" as he's described before when he talked about how most Long Lee's are bought from other collectors.
That's really good news to hear that the rifles can be fired using Mk VII ammo. So far, I haven't had any click bangs coming from the Pakistani stuff, but I haven't fired more than one round myself. The other ten rounds were fired by my step son. The ammo was stored within boxes that were in sealed cans. It's pretty clean stuff. I'm wondering why the rifle that was being used (a CLLE) had the bolt seize up from shooting the ammunition though. A sharp strike with my palm would open it, but gosh, I'm wondering if the preasure from those cartridges was too hot. Does anybody know if some Pakistani ammo is like that? I've two cases of Mk VII ammo from WW II that came from machine gun belts. It certainly is Mk VII and not Mk VIII. Maybe I'll try some of that out and see if the bolt sticks again. The bolt of the Ishapore No 1 Mk III* didn't stick when it was used to fire the Pakistani stuff. I've got about 2500 rounds of Mk VII and I sure hate to think that I can't use any of it in my Long Enflields. But, your advise on it being safe to use in my Long Lee's sounds like good news to me Ray. I'll buy more Pakistani stuff if the price ever comes back down. Maybe that'll be in three years when the next administration comes into the White House. The ammo has gone up to twice what I'd been buying it for earlier which was $175.00 for a case of 780 rounds. I like the idea of having lots of 303 around just in case there's a Maou Maou uprising or the Kafir's start stealing livestock. Not likely in Nebraska, but I can allways hope, and it's a good excuse to stock pile it. What I'd really like to find is a double barreled cape rifle in 303. I passed up one that was chambered in 303 and 16 guage. It had the African sights too. The 16 guage barrel wasn't Nitro proofed but the 303 was although the rifling was Metford.
OK, thanks for the good advice Ray. Say, have you seen the leather bandoliers that are available for the old Lee's? I've got two new made MLE types of the Victorian pattern that have the flaps all the way around for 50 rounds of un-clipped 303 as well as one of the new 5 pocket pattern with the flaps for 10 stripper clips. There's a new version out now that is a copy of the older 9 pocket with flaps that contains 18 stripper clips. If you ever get them, just treat the stiff leather with a good lanoline based leather conditioner (NOT neats foot oil) and it'll stretch the leather to allow two clips each as it was designed. You shouldn't need that model of bandolier though unless and until you get a CLLE. Just a neat thing to have. You can get any of them from What Price Glory or International Military Antiques which carries the Martini Henry bandolier for 50 rounds but not the 9 pocket version for 18 .303 stripper clips.

Here's a neat thing to have, They aren't very expensive yet and are known in Briton as a Ventometer
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Fred, if I understand right, the ammo that was sticking the bolt was the Pakistani stuff that came from machine gun belts.
I know that some machine gun ammo is loaded much hotter then the regular ammo. Maybe that Pakistani MG ammo was that way and was loaded hotter also. Did you happen to look at the primers to see if they showed excess presure like flattened instead of a bit rounded?
I had an original leather British bandolier from Boer war once. It still had a few rds of the old 303 round nose ammo in it and some period 7mm Mauser ammo in it. Ray

Ray, no I didn't look at the primers. Thanks! I'll do that in a little while when the sun comes up. Thanks for your advice! DId you ever get the 3rd Long Lee rifle from the man Ray?

No I didn't get it. He said he has someone else interested in it. Ray