Would someone post the best/correct way to finish, for example, a new stock set from CMP? :beerchug:
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Would someone post the best/correct way to finish, for example, a new stock set from CMP? :beerchug:
No quick fixes and most folks always use too much finish.
Raw linseed oil, over and over, for the rest of your days.
PD
Hey Loy,
Got a Garand last year from the CMP, came with new Birch wood stained an ugly brown. Hand sanded the stain off with #220 grit paper. Re-stained with a 50/50 mix of Minwax walnut and red oak stain. Finished with three coats of hand rubbed pure tung oil from The Real Milk Paint Co. I'd do the same with walnut unless it came with a nice color. Just my preference.
LB
Loy
Finishing or re-finishing a stock will probably get you about 20 different basic mixtures and ideas.
But here are a few basic rules, if you feel you must be original, remember the U.S. Military never called for any oil/finish other than Raw Linseed Oil to be used on M1903 stocks. RLO is not an easy oil for most people to use, and as Pete stated, far too much is applied at one time and not nearly enough time give for drying. But if you must be original you are stuck with RLO.
Boiled Linseed Oil can be used but it is really not much easer to put on raw wood than RLO (when done correctly). It is not military, too shinny, in some units I knew, just boning or spooning a stock could get you an Articial 15. I just do not see any reason to use it.
One of the Tung oil finishes (straight or one of the mixes) is much easer to apply and gives a nicer finish (though really not military).. Almost none of the available ’so called’ tung oil finishes have much tung oil in them. The Behr product #600 has had its make up changed and is no longer useful. A replacement has been found by Rome over on the Parallax Forum and it is ’True Tone T-400 Tung Oil Finish’, call Master Chemicals at 800-325-3552.
As nice as some of the Tung Oil finishes can be, tung oil, and also linseed oil, are terrible at sealing wood. Test have put them almost at the bottom, in their resistance to moisture entering and leaving wood. That trait is what made them so great for paint for so many years. From what I can tell from the FMs & TMs, the military did not look on RLO as a sealer of wood but as a means to prevent dry wood and cracking.
If you feel that the wood must be sealed the best you can, one of the oil based varnishes or mixes there of,, will be your best bet. You can use one of the matt finishes and then on last coat rub it out with rotten stone or very fine steel wool.
If you want a ‘looker’ one of the mixes with bee’s wax can be very interesting.
But I am sure you will get many mixes and ideas, pick the one that will work best for what you want,, and have fun.
45B20
Loy
Just to give you an idea of what a pain correctly applied RLO can be, here is the procedure I use when RLO must be used.
If you are talking about raw unfinished wood, soak the wood in warm thinned 50/50 (I use turp) RLO,,,I try to let it soak for at least two hours and longer if I can. Let it hang for at least a day, wipe it down, then soak it with warm un-thinned RLO, again let it hang for about a day, and then start wiping it down once a day for about a month adding NO RLO during this time. Then rub in (and I really mean rub in), 2 drops of RLO a month for a year, then, 2 drops a year for the rest of the stocks life.
If the climate is really warm and dry,, you could reduce drying time to two week, but no LESS.
The problem most people have with RLO is too much applied and too short drying time.
I hate RLO for stocks
45B20
Loy,
First coat I put on was a 50/50 mix of pure tung oil and mineral spirits, the humidity was low and the temperature was in the high eighties. Was dry to the touch after twenty four hours. Waited a day and put the second coat on, pure tung oil. Same result, dry to the touch after a day. Waited another day and put another coat of uncut tung and I was done. Semi-gloss finish that is dry, never tacky.
LB
with some modification, you can spice it up a bit, make your own mix, some tung oil, boiled linseed oil, lemon oil, old fashioned furniture oil.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteDavis
primary is of course boiled linseed oil then to your desire add the rest, some even add a few drops of stain, if you would like some highlight colors, add some mahoghaney or cherry stain
and make enough to last twenty years, and all it takes is a few drops at a time and lots of devotion
:beerchug:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9b3f28ae-1.jpg
...........:beerchug:.............
MJ1-
Nice rifle, tell us about it.
PD
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../ry3D400-1.jpg Everybody has an opinion. But I like just a little stain to show the grain of the wood. I really like the Red Oak stain by Varathane followed by a coat of red mahogeney Danish oil. It gives just a hint of red but you can still see the grain. FWIW Truman
Formby's Tung Oil finish cuts all the corners & turns out right! The Army replaced Linseed Oil with Tung oil in the late '30s. Tung oil is superior to BLO in many ways; ease of application; quick drying & superior water resistence are the main ones. There are several tung oil potions on the market; Formby's in among the best & easiest to use. Get it at Lowes, Home Depot, etc.
Check out the Chestnut Ridge Military Stain is the beat & easiest to apply Miscellaneous Parts and Accessories It's water based, can be put on in multiple coats until you get the color you want, blends well.
If the military stopped using BLO in the 1930's why would BLO have been issued in new cans in the mid 1960's? I must have lathered up 2K of M1's, Carbines, M1A1 .45's and M14's in '67 alone. I hope the PM's didn't cause me to ruin a lot of wood.
....MJ...
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
MJ1
Do you specify remember the can saying “Oil Linseed, Boiled”???
As to your question as to the use of Tung Oil by the US Military..
From:
BROPHY’s
“The Springfield Armory 1890-1948”
Annual Report 1934, pg.272
Under Research and Development
1933-25 “Test of Tung Oil as a Wood Preservative.”
Annual Report 1941, pg. 349
Under Developments
“Gunstocks
Through the cooperative effort of the Pratt & Lambert Company of Buffalo, New York, a China-wood oil compound as a substitute of the raw linseed oil used in treating wooden rifle components has been developed for the purpose of reducing the tendency such parts have for smoking and sweating at high firing temperatures. In compliance with O.C.M. instructions, 1000 rifles assembled with hand guards and stocks treated with finish will be sent to the Using Arms for field test.”
My comment,, (O.C.M.=Ordnance Committee Meeting, it would have a minute number along with it).
Annual Report 1942, pg 356
Under Developments
“Miscellaneous---
The china wood oil compound developed in cooperation with the Pratt-Lambert Company for finishing
Stocks and hand guards has been approved as standard and in now in use at the Armory.”
I can find nothing more about the use or discontinuation of Tung (china) Oil at the Armory in this book.
Please note that the statement on pg. 356 appears to apply only to Springfield. I would think (opinion only) that there is a possibly, that while Tung was in use at Springfield it could have be used on all Small Arms built or rebuilt at the Armory, there again it could have only been use on the M1. Questions like these and for the GCA or the likes of Mr. Beard
As I understand (no real documentation at hand) the use of Tung Oil was discontinued before the end of the War. Availably,, cost ,, causes skin rash,, use in jet fuel,, I do not know. I am told that the use of Tung was restarted in later production, however at all M1 manufactures?? or just Springfield?? Again,, I do not know. I do know that the later Overhaul Standards given for the M1 and M14 allowed the use of Tung.
But I do know, that, (other than the Instructions for Overhaul of the M1&14, printed in the early 60s),, NO US Military publications,, such as, Instructions to Bidders, TR, TM, FM, PS Mags. or Rebuild Instructions covering the M1903 series (and I think I have them all) ever called for any thing other than Raw Linseed Oil be applied to the wood. This also applies to the M1 Rifle and M1/2 Carbine and the M14. Exception for the M1 and 14,, would be the wood on ‘Match’ Rifles, (dunkem in spar varnish or what ever super sealem concoction was in vogue)
45B20
I don't remember what the cans said after 43 years but the instructors in school called it linseed oil. It was always refered to as BLO but could have been tung. They also went way into getting it on every surface even inside the storage holes in the butt and inside the stock. I have seen the rags seff ignite. Always fun. But in the end we believed it was BLO and I replaced more than a few M14 stocks that where chared inside and smoked one my self one night along with a barrel. I was just asking if I was wrong all these years and also if the PM's I was always up dating where wrong too. If so I screwed up over a ton of rifles. Good luck for me I seldom saw the end users of the .30 M2's and Thompson guns I soaked in the stuff what ever it was.
MJ1
I would strongly suspect it was Raw. Were you a company armour/armor or did you work in a depot???
I was a Small Arms Repairman (gun plummer) while in Viet Nam I was an adviser to some of the RF/PFs in Bin Din province, With one of these groups I notice a very distinct odor from their weapons ’room’. I asked what they were using on the wood, the individual who thought he was in charge said it was oil (pronounce eril), then I asked what kind of oil?? Someone ran off for a minute, and returned with the can the oil came from. It was certainly oil, but Vegetable Oil. Given the problem these people had in getting supplies and our limited supplies. I told them to keep using the Vegetable Oil on the wood,,, a little bit at a time and to wipe it down, but to remember to use the 20wt motor and GAA on the metal parts. I was mixing JP-4 and red hydraulic oil (cherry juice) and giving them that to use as a bore cleaner.
I was part of a team that was rebuilding captured weapons and the wood on the AK & SkSs soaked up so much RLO we tried to obtain BLO and found it to be just about unobtainable, we ended up by soaking them in spar varnish..
One more thing on the Springfield Armory use of Tung Oil, note the book states “compound”, I sure would like to know what made up that “compound"?????
45B20
I have a friend that went through USMC basic about 1959/60, and he distinctly remembered being issued raw linseed oil to use on his M1 Rifle stock. He was terribly disappointed when he was issued an H&R, as he had always associated H&R with making cheap pistols.
Loy,
I certainly no expert. I just fininished re-finishing a 1903 with BLO and it came out great, but my understanding is that the "correct" way, as far as a true US military finish would require you to imerse the entire stock in BLO heated to a certain temp, then allowed to dry. Haven't read of anyone here actually doing that. Everything else is just a way to achieve a finish similar. Anyway, I'm in the process of finishing 2 CMP stocks. I've decided to go with Tom's 1/3 mix on the first. It's a combination of beeswax, BLO and turpentine. So far, I have one coat on, and it looks good. You can check out his website @ Home Page. HTH
It very well could have been raw linseed oil. I had about the same job in Kontum. Not so much the Sov. stuff but WW2 US arms for the CIDG and PF's or Mung villages up higher along the border.
...MJ...
Actually Dollar, the original treatment was a heated immersion in Raw Linseed Oil or Pure Tung Oil, and I have done it.
The results I got were fantastic, simply great looking wood.
That being said, I found out through experimentation that I got identical results by heating a much smaller amount of oil, and brushing it on using a natural bristle brush. It saved the hassle of keeping and heating a few gallons of oil. Now I can do it with about a pint of oil.
I only used this method on new made, in-the-white stocks.
I really don't understand the almost emotional reaction against using the original treatments, Raw Linseed Oil or Pure Tung Oil.
Neither need to be thinned, just rub a small amount in by hand (about a teaspoon) for 10 to 15 minutes, rub it in enough to generate some heat, no need to cause blisters or anything. Let the stock rest for about 45 minutes, then wipe every drop you can off of with a paper towel. Give it a day to rest and do it again.
I think the problem people have with oil bleed is caused by two things. First overuse of whatever oil treatment they choose. I'm sure BLO is often slathered on unnecessarily heavy too, but since it dries to a candy shell, there is no bleed. Second, the oil bleed from most surplus stocks is due to cosmoline and 50 years of oil applied before you owned it seeping out, not so much from the few coats you (the new owner) applied. The new coats didn't help the problem, but certainly aren't the sole cause.
Remember BLO as you buy it today, is nothing like the heat polymerized linseed oil of 100 to 200 years ago. It's a modern consumer product primarily used to retard oxidation on garden equipment...just read the label. It is in no way related to the wood treatments specified by U.S. Ordnance. It's actually a nasty witches brew of all sorts of stuff you really don't need to expose yourself to. Raw Linseed Oil and Pure Tung Oil are not only appropriate, but so safe they can often be purchased as food grade.
-Patrick
So, where do you get these oils? I've kinda half-assed searched for BLO, RLO and TO at Home Depot, Lowes, and a couple unfinished furniture stores, but found nothing close.
I buy my Pure Tung Oil from the Real Milk Paint Company:
http://www.realmilkpaint.com/oil.html
You can usually find Raw Linseed Oil at independent or smaller hardware stores, the boxes don't carry it. It is more expensive, but I have also bought it from a health food store as Flaxseed Oil, its the same stuff.
Patrick, is there a temperature you should shoot for/avoid because of flammability, or do you just want to warm it enough to aid in penetration? Pure tung oil is available locally. I looked at the BLO I had and you are right on the money. Protection of gardening equipment. I guess I'll use it on my shovel handles!Quote:
Originally Posted by P.W.Browning
I couldn't recall off the top of my head so I just checked the MSDSs at a few places online and see that Pure Tung Oil and Raw Linseed Oil both have flash points listed at over 230.
I use a cheap candy making thermometer and heat in a stainless steel bowl to about 125 degrees. I use an inexpensive hotplate and do this all outdoors.
I cut open a big garbage bag and then drive a 3 to 4 foot length of rebar a foot or so into the ground right in the middle of the bag. This will protect your lawn, as drops of heated oil will kill grass. I place the stock on the rebar, luckily Garand and 03 Stocks both have nice lightening and tool storage recesses in the butt. This will position the stock at an easy to work level and give you full access to brush with the exception of the very end of the butt.
Then I heat the oil and brush it on liberally. Get it everywhere, inside, outside, all over it. Let it rest at least 30 minutes, then grab a wad of paper towels and wipe it dry. Wipe it down a few times over the course of the day. Ideally by that evening, you don't have much (if any) to wipe off. The used paper towels can be a combustion hazard, so watch out. Since I use Raw Linseed Oil and Pure Tung Oil, I usually burn the oil soaked paper towels on my grill, eliminating any worry. You can't do that with BLO safely due to the chemical hardeners.
I give the stock a few days to rest, and check daily to wipe down any that is seeping out. If you get any spots that look like the oil has glazed over (mainly seen when using Tung Oil) use some synthetic steel wool or the finest sandpaper you used on the stock to get rid of that spot.
Next, several repeated hand rubbings and you are on the way to a very nice looking stock via a more practical (for the hobbyist) modification of the original processes using the original materials.
I'll try to post a few photos of new stocks I have done tomorrow.
-Patrick
My use of RLO may have sounded far more elaborate than it really was. I did almost all of my RLO stock finishing in the summer. I just used the heat of the Sun to “warm” the RLO. I had a 1gal. can (panted black) of RLO that I set in the Sun for a day or two, our daytime temps were often in the teens or higher and night time temps seldom got below 85. I have a container that would just hold a full length 03 stock, I would place the stock (also warmed in the sun) in the container. Add the warm RLO, and let it set. The stock was held under with a block of steel. I had no idea what the temp of the oil was. I was involved in two large rebuild and building projects of M1903s, but even then I have never added outside heat to RLO.
P.W.
I also do not understand the reluctance of people to use RLO. I really think it is be cause most people do not know there is a difference between RLO and BLO. This term ’BLO’ just seems to roll off posters fingers, but most just think that just means all Linseed Oils. The when they go to their ’Box Store’, BLO is all they see, so they figure that is IT.
Many years ago I used a lot of RLO but I think Tung is easer to apply and gives a nicer finish, but that is me. So if it was to be an oil finish I stuck to Tung Oil. Today if I must finish a stock, it is sanded in and hand rubbed oil base varnish. Another source for RLO is art or hobby supply stores, they sell it in in little bottles.
MJ1
My rebuilding of captured Small Arms took place on an ARVN installation near Bong Son. This was first half of 68. You are about the third person to have told me they were involved in similar projects. I have some theories as to the end use of these AK, SKS & RPGs . They range from the usual CIA/SF stories,, to simply some senior (or not so senior) US and/or ARVN officers, out to make a little extra money. But as I said, ’theories’.
45B20
Thanks! I was reading this to get an idea on how to finish a Boyd's stock I have for carbine. I am going with th Formby's and a red oak stain. I have a birch I did years ago and it still looks good. It was one of those painted red looking finishes to begin with.