Repro No32's....I think they've arrived....

Just this evening got back from what is billed as Europe's biggest Arms Fair in Belgium. Plenty of nice kit there, but at ebay plus prices. One thing I did take a cursory look at was a dud looking No4 T at 2,650 Euros. It was as wrong as a nine bob note, but what I wasn't expecting was to find that the scope was a copy. I know they have been talked about for some time, & I guess it was only a matter of time till someone brought it to reality, but the No32 on this rifle (BSA 1943) was not genuine.

Regrettably I did not have a camera with me & my look was limited as I think the owner may have been starting to feel a little awkward; but for the benefit of other forummers:
The scope appeared to be a Mk2, complete with eye shade.
It was nicely blued & optics were fair.
It was marked up as a Kershaw Mk3 yet dated 1943, & bore a totally incorrect four digit serial number something like 3013 or similar.
The R&D turrets were cast with edges so sharp they were pretty obviously not authentic.

I have no idea where it was made & by whom, but I mention it here as now we've seen one (unless it was made as a one-off by an eccentric genius), others will inevitably start to appear. To anyone who knows even a little about No32's I think it would be easily spotted, & indeed basic knowledge on serial number & Mark ranges gleaned from Peter's books would alert people. However, it perhaps bodes well for bidders on scopes entered onto ebay & other auction sites to insist on some nice clear photo's of markings.

There you go!

ATB

Blimy!!

Pecar did a lookalike of a No32 awhile back; I just wonder if that could be the source?

Any idea of the model number for the pecar?There's lots of odd pecars around here.

Thinking around the houses, I wonder if the emergence of replica No32's will damage or enhance the prices of the real thing. After all, up until now, the maker of a replica No4T has HAD to use a real No32 and in a round about way, kept the prices pretty high. But now, he can replicate the whole thing reasonably cheaply and therefore adjust the prices of real Mk2's downwards.

All depends on the price of the replica Mk2's though............ Food for thought

One upside might be that some original scopes and brackets get sold to finance a repro build or to maximize profit on put-together rifles, so your chances of finding "orphaned" scopes goes up!
:dunno:

Do you think the items that were incorrect where done so intentionally by the manufacture to prevent criminal simulation ( forgery ) and passing it off as original.

JBS
I may be cynical, but I would have thought the markings were incorrect more likely because these people don't always do their homework properly, rather than due to altruism. If I were doing them & wished to make them accurate copes but unmistakably copies I would have marked them in such a way as to make it blatantly obvious. I suspect this was just bad forgery, a bit like the jumbled pseudo-enfield markings seen on Khyber pass rifles....but I could well be wrong. Just my .02c.

ATB

Peter,
You make a good point. Not really sure what effect it'll have on the prices of genuine ones. Speaking as someone with a few still in bits in my garage, I hope the prices don't dip! I wonder if any forummers who are knowledgeable about the Russian sniper scope scene could comment; after all they've been reproing PE & PU scopes for some time now? Did the real scopes nose dive when the copies appeared on the scene? Anyone know?

ATB

ATB

I've been watching PEM scopes for some time, the 1937 replicas and modern style with centered turrets get down to $199 US, sans mount, however the genuine 1934/37 pem's and similar are still asking $750's and up. I assume they're getting the sale at that price of they'd be falling but thats not the case.

FWIW My take on the Belgium scope is that its a parts bin special, or home builder, simple reason being I couldn't think of a good reason to make a 1 or 2 instead of a mk3, which has all the simple adjusters on it, someone sinking money into repros would be looking for max sales and I don't mk1 or 2's would be it.

Well, just because its marked Mk2 on the outside may have nothing to do w/ its internals. Need one to dissect!

lol, good point.

Good point about replica Mk1's and 2's. The Mk3 is simplicity itself once you have got the glassware. Indeed, that's the sole reason why the Mk3 was introduced. Cheaper and simpler too

I just sold an original PU scope but there were many questions on how I knew it was original. Then a guy offered me a $100 less for mine because his friend is buying them from a dealer overseas for $169, I politely told him mine was and original and that the other ones being sold were repros.

The "newer" repros are getting better but the markings are still off, they fixed the flat screw head vs the rounded but can't seem to get the markings right.

The one I looked at on auction , at first glance it looked legit until I pulled one of mine out with the same type markings and did a comparison between the two, mine being an original.

Most of the time guys do not care if original vs repro as long as it is cheap BUT those that do want an original are afraid they are getting a repro.

If you want to buy something do your homework first -- that is why I / we visit these forums so we can learn and share info.

By the way I wouldn't mind having one repro No32 -- I'd like to have it so I can reduce the wear on my original No32.

RJW
The turrets looked reasonably well made & confirmed to the Mk1/2 pattern, with central lead screw & steel locking ring. Range drum had the little 50 yds increments not seen on Mk1's. The markings on the scope were professionally applied, just inaccurately done.
I rather suspect we'll eventually see repro Mk1's, 2's & 3's but I guess for the moment we just gotta watch to see what turns up.

ATB

We had to see this coming. Small shops all over the world sitting idle and CAD technology and graphic design so easily available. I'm surprised it had not happened sooner with the unit price of originals what it is. I have only seen a few fuzzy shots of the Pecar #32 type scope but they saw a value in the market. Then there is the Russian and old Eastern Block optical industry who didn't miss a beat supplying PU scopes which are not that far from recent production LMG scopes. It was only a short time after the PE/PEM type scope became available as a replica.

If some poster has a good picture or possibly have a copy of the Pecar please post it. I was told the cost was over $600 USD.

Will these scopes devalue the originals? No.

I did not use the words fake, phony,copy, criminal deception or get a rope for this guy.

Thank you for the report and sharing the information Roger. Did you turn the knobs?

Peter hit many good points but none better than the fact the MkIII was the improved/up graded design derived partly or mostly to aid manufacture and a better in the field useable design.

If I was going to do a re-pop to fool the market I would try to make the MkIII type for all the reasons Pete has pointed out.


Interesting.

..MJ..

Repops........ If you did Mk3's, you could even use the old No53 tubes once you have machined .012" or so off the main tube diameter and cast the turret housing on. CNC that and insert the diaphragm spacers and you're pretty well home and dry...........

Yep, the Mk3 is the way to go. Shame I didn't write up an engineering plan a few years ago but if anyone is thinking about it............................

I seem to recall a London RFD eminent in the practical rifle world was intending to gear up to do exactly that some years ago, though nothing has ever materialised. He had 500 No42 scopes, not #53's. I was offered them many years ago at 6 pounds a lump & turned them down, 'Who needs 600, I said!?'
One lives & learns.....

ATB

Sorry, in last posting for '600' read '500'.

The Pecar-Berlin Scope Company closed its doors in 2007

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

I seem to recall a London RFD eminent in the practical rifle world was intending to gear up to do exactly that some years ago, though nothing has ever materialised. He had 500 No42 scopes, not #53's. I was offered them many years ago at 6 pounds a lump & turned them down, 'Who needs 600, I said!?'
One lives & learns.....

ATB

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AS an aside; the RFD in question once bought a quantity of L39's from the RAF Shooting Club, I believe most of them went very quickly because when I phoned up about a month after the his advert broke in the shooting press they had all gone.
Whilst on the phone his wife interupted the conversion and said that one had been put aside for a customer who had not returned for it, if I could get there quickly with the money it was mine.
The good news was that the original customer had gone through the lot of them and selected the most pristine example he could find.

I bought it the next day!

Unfortunmately I didn't have your luck Mick. When I enquired some years ago re the scopes I was offered the No42's (now down to 400+) & the 'tooling & drawings'.....for £60,000odd! Needless to say I (politely) declined......& am still looking for No42's & 53's as sources of lenses for the ex-Indian No32's languishing in varying stages of decay in my garage!! However, advancing age has made me less impulsive & more patient; I know they'll turn up some day so I'll just keep looking & waiting!

ATB

I'm not sure if this driectly relates to the thoughts on pricing of originals being effected by copies or "reproductions" but it is an interesting parallell.

The Hensoldt scopes were running about $375 here in the US, &, like the Mk 32s becoming hard to find. Then there was a flood of cheper copies of the scope being mass marketed to the gun owning fraternity.
Those that wanted to own the real McCoy did so, even at the substantial price difference. Those bargain hunters bought the copies, but after a couple of years of the cheaper duplicates being available in volume the price today of a Hensoldt Fero Z-24 remains exactly the same.
Food for thought maybe?

Thanks FugWit2 -- I certainly hope the originals will hold their value; after all, they're exactly that - originals - something the others will never be........
ATB

We had this situation many years ago with the powerful MGB-GT V8's...., you know the ones, with the 3.5 litre Buick/Rover engine. Only 2591 were ever built (I had number 711) but after production ceased, it was easy to make one from bits and a bog standard MGB GT. Fine, but just so long as you knew that the repro was JUST that. A repro and it'd never be the real McCoy and further, never worth as much either..........................

I forgot to add......... that I made a killing afterwards by converting bog standard gearboxes, overdrives and axles to accept the powerful 3.5 litre gear train. But while they were identical, they weren't the real thing!

Well there's certainly been a whole bunch of No42s appearing on ebay of late 'fresh from army storage' no less.

They certainly ain't from any Army stores system that I know of because I regularly input the part number of them and other odds and sods that I can think of. Purely for academic interest you understand..........

What sort of prices are they fetching Prinz? That's not your brother that sings 'pretty little red corvette' is is Prinz? Or is it Chevette..., as in Vauxhall car of the 80's. Anyway, he goes by the name Prince!

Peter,

Letter received, thanks very much for the additional info.

Cheers,
Simon.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

They certainly ain't from any Army stores system that I know of because I regularly input the part number of them and other odds and sods that I can think of. Purely for academic interest you understand..........

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Well they're often described in the listing (at least the recent ones) as being almost identical to the no32s - mostly go for about £80 maybe a bit more (I suppose it depends if people think they're getting an enfield scope...).

So what has the army got squirrelled away Peter? I'm sure we'd all be interested!:thup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

That's not your brother that sings 'pretty little red corvette' is is Prinz? Or is it Chevette..., as in Vauxhall car of the 80's. Anyway, he goes by the name Prince!

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[Actually I prefer the song Marlborough's soldiers sung around the Battle of Blenheim 'Raise a glass, raise a glass, raise a glass to Prinz Eugene']

On the subject of No42's and 53's for use as spares, I sold a mint (and I mean mint too.....) No 53 a couple of years ago only to find it winging its way back to me last month, with a No32 with a damaged ocular end. The owner of the No32 had been wise enough to spend £50 or so (I seem to remember.....) and when the time came, and he let his rifle drop and damge the rear of the scope, he had another. Just remember that next time you see one for sale!

Sorry Roger........, that's just put the price up a bit more!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

On the subject of No42's and 53's for use as spares, I sold a mint (and I mean mint too.....) No 53 a couple of years ago only to find it winging its way back to me last month, with a No32 with a damaged ocular end. The owner of the No32 had been wise enough to spend £50 or so (I seem to remember.....) and when the time came, and he let his rifle drop and damge the rear of the scope, he had another. Just remember that next time you see one for sale!

Sorry Roger........, that's just put the price up a bit more!

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Wish I could get decent No53's for 50 pounds a lump......ebay is exerting its influence even on these!

ATB

I threw that in DRP as an example of GET ONE WHILE YOU CAN. They ain't makin no more! I remember old John Sookey who used to say how everything was cheap - yesterday!

Has anyone seen the No4T TP Lyman Alaskan and bracket on Ebay for what can only be best described as an eye watering amount of dosh!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I threw that in DRP as an example of GET ONE WHILE YOU CAN. They ain't makin no more! I remember old John Sookey who used to say how everything was cheap - yesterday!

Has anyone seen the No4T TP Lyman Alaskan and bracket on Ebay for what can only be best described as an eye watering amount of dosh!

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In fact I picked up my first for a few months (other than the one we discussed) last week at the National Motorbike Museum show. The dealer wanted a positively profane amount for it, but fortunately he also wanted a hooked quillon SMLE bayonet off me (Aussie marked) that I had a good profit margin on, so all worked out well in the end......

I have a promise of another which will be great if it comes off as most of the scopes in the garage that still need rebuilding are Mk2's. For some reason there seems to be rather more No42's about than No53's. Does this reflect production totals Peter?

ATB

To be honest DRP, I haven't got a clue about No42 and 53 production. Never made it a subject worthy of study I have to admit. Jeeeees, the prices must have jumped a bit to be worth a hooked quim bayonet though!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

To be honest DRP, I haven't got a clue about No42 and 53 production. Never made it a subject worthy of study I have to admit. Jeeeees, the prices must have jumped a bit to be worth a hooked quim bayonet though!

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Oh, I did take some cash off him as well!