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I traded for this M1 Carbine 15-round magazine awhile back and have not been able to find out anything about it. The mag looks like any other, though the base is new to me too with two holes. The magazine is marked U.S. Co. and also 1 19-42. Anybody have a clue?
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Hang on to it. I don't know anything about it except that the design differs from the magazine initially issued. It's the date that intrigues me, just six weeks after Pearl Harbor. I'm wondering if it's some kind of prototype submitted by that company? Or, a total fabrication by some Bubba with a die set? I lean toward prototype with no justification for it - just a feeling. There are some major collectors on here that possibly can make me look like a fool with this 'prototype' talk - it's all about that date which was when Carbines were getting ready to go into production, and everybody in America was scrambling to get into wartime production of something.
I agree with Inland44 that it may be a prototype. I reminds me of some of the prototype magazine ones-ies I saw 20 years ago when I was into early M16 stuff. The base being engaged by the slotted ribs is intriguing.
That may tell a tale. It looks like the 30rd bolt stopper from the photo shown. Interesting.
Thanks guys. I emailed Bill Ricca the same photos & description and he thought that this is a fantasy piece "with two holes drilled in an early floor plate". He added, "The drawing never called for dates on magazines. It is somebody's dream."
I always take what Bill says as gospel, but in this case I wonder if he might be mistaken. Besides how the base plate fits into the shell, the follower is longer than any 15-rounder I have seen and is not cut for a bolt stop. There is also no indication that any original maker's mark had been covered over.
Even if this is a fantasy piece, I am sure going to keep it just for the novelty if nothing else. Especially since I got it at a shooter mag price. I am thinking that this sure could be some type of prototype magazine and will continue to research it.
Does it work OK? As in feeding rounds smoothly without jamming?
"The drawing never called for dates on magazines. It is somebody's dream."
BR is reknowned for his knowledge and collections of sub-contractor contracts for all things Carbine, but if this is a very early 'one-off' magazine, it would have possibly been pre-drawing; the drawing may have been developed after a successful magazine was provided, and the dates would have been to identify various submittals with the revisions from the previous ones. This would have been needed to keep everything straight during the hurry-up atmosphere in post-Pearl Harbor US industry. I don't see how the floorplate is retained, but I'll take the rangemaster's idea as good. That feature would have been my first revision on that submittal, to make it be retained by the folded tabs on the body which looks more secure to me.
The font of the date stamp is a strike against this idea of a US-made prototype because it looks like a European die set, not typical of a set in use in the USA in 1942. A '1' for example would have been just a straight line or with serifs like the one I just typed, not with the Euro-type long angled 'flag'. I don't believe you will find a '1' like that in the numbering on any U.S. small arm of any period, particularly not WWII or earlier.
Just speculations on a slow night! We might never know what it is.
The very first carbine magazines, during prototype and testing were twenty rounders.....
I haven't loaded a round into it and probably won't since I am awash in USGI mags. It looks like it has seen a fair amount of usage in its long life. Somebody "polished" where the name is, probably with steel wool. How nice of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by rondog
Inland44, thanks for your additional insights and speculation. I too don't like to question anything that Bill R. has to offer. That said, I really don't see what anybody would have to gain with making a fantasy piece such as this, especially since nothing looks like it had been made from an existing 15-round magazine. It really doesn't look like Bubba played with it.
It seems to be slightly lighter weight than my other 15-round mags, or at least the IU one I compared it too. I will put some additional photos online tomorrow, showing the mag follower and the base plate.
You are probably right that this one could remain a mystery. :confused:
Don't forget the five rounders and even some 50-rounders that were tested with various prototypes. Maybe this one was hand-made by "Carbine" Williams. :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom in N.J.
Tom is correct. The first test magazines were 20 rounders. Furthermore I used to see many "Fantasy" markings on magazines because a standard magazine was 50-75 cents, but if you convinced somebody you had something special, it would sell for $5.00 and up.
I have seen Army Air Corps magazines, Rock Island magazines, WWII Dated magazines with 1960's FSN's and a lot of nonsense. I checked and found no US Co as a contractor.
The follower can not be a hold open. The T18 follower was designed and tested by Autoyre and not adopted until April of 1945. Autoyre made 250 of them and tested them in the 15 round magazine.
Can you post a picture of the follower?
Sorry but none of the markings on this magazine make any sense.
As to the "1" I have seen "1s" like that on older Winchesters and Marlins. It is an archaic style, for sure.
It looks like the base plate is retained by slots cut into the ribs. It also looks like the back is longer and has a slightly rounder contour. The more I look at it, and think about it, I would bet a paycheck (as small as it may be) that is is a prototype run or submission. It may even be one of those 20 rounder trial mags cut down, and the only way to attach the base plate after that was to cut a slot for the vbase plate to slide in. Way to much effort for a fantasy, especially it it measures slightly longer.
I do agree with Bill, based on my limited knowledge, that the markings are odd!
Damn, there goes my plans on retiring early by selling the Holy Grail of M1 Carbine mags.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Ricca
The follower is not a hold-open, though it is longer on top than others. The base plate and how it connects to the body of the magazine is something I have never seen before. I'll post some more photos tomorrow and I thank you all for your help.
Here are four more photos of the weird magazine (on left) and a IU mag for comparison purposes (on right).
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just from its length and size. Long front piece too, just like improved M16 followers.
I bet ya if you put it on Gunbroker and called it a rare Exp.,unseen tool room example of the bolt hold open mag for the T-3A4 sniper carbine your Grandpa snuck out of the factory during WW2 in his lunch box you could get your $5,000 and retire.
Or perhaps they were trying to get a contract to make carbine mags and this was a testing example?
That's the $5,000 question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt
There is an old-line manufacturing company called Stanley Electric U.S.CO.
They were (or are?) a lighting component company but at one time were involved with other things as well.
Just a thought.
That would make sense, as a lighting manufacturer would already be doing sheet metal and stamping. Someone should see if the are still in business. Most companies have an archivist or historian. worth a shot. That may be a $5,000 one-of mag!
Haven't I seen US CO on WW1 Gear? Or was it USC CO Don't remember what.
The problem with markings is the authorized marks were different on different items. I will not go into the details as it was quite complex.
This magazine may have been made up as a "drop off". Although I have no actual records that can be confirmed, many items I have seen have been claimed to be one of them. A drop off occurs when an ordnance officer brings a requirement to a local machine shop and shows up a few weeks later to pick up a sample. I know of no instance where it led to a contract, and again, I know of no way to confirm this system. It is strictly claims made by the owners.
The strange thing about this magazine is if you cut away the fold over tabs
holding the floor plate, and install two slots in the body you have the actual body of this magazine. If you cut two holes in an early floor plate using a Keeler Brass floor plate, which some have no indents for ease of removal, you have this one. This magazine has a drainage hole in the rear of the body, indicating late manufacture.
There are also several different unmarked 15 round magazines. Some are production errors and I suspect there was a post war contract by Japan which were unmarked, as I have several that came in from Japan, on bid.
There are several followers that start more to the rear than others, but as I never checked out any large quantity, nor the different shapes, I have no knowledge of any that start at the rear.
I still think it is somebody's handiwork.
As always Bill, thanks for your expert opinion.
Did you notice from my original photos that this one has two holes on the back, the second one clear at the top? I also noticed that the keepers are not completely uniform as I have seen in my other USGI mags and also have small holes on the bottom of the keepers. The base plate also is less round at the end than the Type 1 mag's I have. The indentation at the end of the plate also is less pointed than the Type 1's I am used to and the magazine housing itself is beveled at the bottom rear. The housing is also the same height as a regular mag. It has been shot a good amount with the insides dirty and the spring mounted backwards.
I guess that this magazine will probably remain a mystery. I do think that Bubba went to an awful lot of trouble to get an extra $4.50 back when mags were $.50 a pop if that is where it came from. I think I've already got my $15 worth out of it considering I haven't loaded a round in it and probably won't.
Thanks again for your help.
How long is the rear surface compared to a GI? It looks longer and rounded on the rear surface, instead of square. If it is longer, there is no way it is a modified GI as you can't stretch steel. Maybe a shortened early 20 rounder? The bottom hole could be a witness hole for the 20th round if the magazine was longer, then cut down. Just wondering.
The rear is the same depth as a normal USGI and it is rounded as you noticed. I really don't think this is a modified mag, or at least from a 15-rounder.Quote:
Originally Posted by imarangemaster
I have only seen the prototype 20-rounders in photos. Does anybody know how the bottom plate was attached on these? :confused:
Eh, I'll give ya 20 bucks for it.....
Eh, thanks but no thanks. :slap:Quote:
Originally Posted by rondog
Without being able to certify an item, I always suspect foul play. It is possible it was a drop off item as originally described. (In my mind, I need proof)
Well, whatever it is, it's nice to have an oddity like this for my growing M1 Carbine magazine collection. Thanks again for sharing your expertise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Ricca
:beerchug:
The follower is not a hold-open as is evident by the photos. I know this was said in jest, but it seems to be a persistent idea in this discussion. Anyone making such a claim obviously doesn't know what a hold-open follower looks like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt
Well I also called it T3A4 sniper carbine. Dude it is Friday have a beer relax a little. It is only the 12 people on this forum out of the billions in the whole world that care about a carbine mag follower anyways.
Looks like the nibs have the discoloration and deformation associated with the flame-hardening operation - the early mags have a simple cutout with no surrounding oval from the flame hardening that came late in 15-round mag manufacture. All kinds of previously unknown markings on M1 carbine parts have surfaced lately - I think the fakers have a sense of humor as well as cupidity.
I don't know about a sense of humor :lol: , as much as they feel people are just gullible. But I do think the fakers have a sense of cupidity (greed). They know most people would like to have something unique. And will usually pay big dollars trying to obtain it.
Dang, Jim....
It's good to have some intellectuals here such as yourself.
I thought 'cupidity' was a typo for 'stupidity' when I read it! :madsmile:
Date: 15th century
1 : inordinate desire for wealth : AVARICE, GREED
* I still feel the mag is authentic. ('Authentic' what, is the question)
It just seems it would have taken way too much work to have created it for no more than it could sell for. (jmo)
And I can add that from the external and internal wear that this mag was not made yesterday. I think "authentic what" says it all.Quote:
Originally Posted by cafdfw
Couple of simple questions - 1) Could I modify, manufacture or copy the item with pieces and parts readily available? 2) Why is this showing up now, 65 years later? 3) what does this item do that other (real) items didn't do back in that era?
From my experiance when you happen on something for a couple bucks that looks good, it probally is. When you get the story,a lecture and a lesson on what your buying+ big price tag, your bout to get screwed.
Nothing except not being accepted into mass production.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired Retired
USCO-Could it be; UNITED SPECIALTIES CO..They subcontracted to Auto-Ord. to make TSMG mags. They used a stamped U or USCO to mark their product.[pg 328 American Thunder II]. Maybe that is a prototype and that is the protoyype's date stamped on it for reference. Just trying to help.:dunno:
Sounds as good as anything so far. Thanks for the suggestion.Quote:
Originally Posted by shadycon
Didn't auto ordnance make a prototype for submission to the carbine program in 1941? I think I have a pic. I will check the magazine!
"I thought 'cupidity' was a typo for 'stupidity' when I read it!"
"Date: 15th century
1 : inordinate desire for wealth : AVARICE, GREED"
Dang! And I always thought Cupidity had something to do with matching up compatible partners for marriage!
In American Thunder II on pg 484 They show a protoype Thompson in .30 carbine. Just like big brother in .45. In Riesh's book pgs 1-4, the date on your mag seems to fall into the range of the first prototype's. But they only talk about 20 rd mags?:dunno:Quote:
Originally Posted by imarangemaster
Does anybody have the email address for Robert Lukes? He is the guy who made that handy WEB site on M1 Carbine magazines. The email address on the site apparently is not in use anymore. I'm sure everybody has seen the site below:
http://www.eqth.net/mirror/carbinemags/