I have read it, and seen it, and my version may not be the most accurate, however here is the gist of it
"If you want to hunt buy a mauser, if you want to target shoot buy a springfield, if you need to go to war get a 303Brit"
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I have read it, and seen it, and my version may not be the most accurate, however here is the gist of it
"If you want to hunt buy a mauser, if you want to target shoot buy a springfield, if you need to go to war get a 303Brit"
The way I heard it was, The Mauser was a hunting rifle, The Enfield was a battle rifle & the Springfield was a target rifle. Of course, these are gross generalizations. All three are excellent rifles and are efficient battle rifles in the hands of a proficient rifleman. Remember, war is the art of nutralizing the opponent and you really only have to "punch" a hole in that soldier to nutralize him. How the hole is punched is all up to the shooter using whatever tool he has. Most casualties are caused by Artillery I've read. Which brings to mind another saying I heard. "Artillery lends dignity to what would otherwise be just a vulgar brawl." That of course was from an officer from the Napoleanic War.
No, it's a cartoon from Punch, as so often in these cases.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...21210274-1.jpg
published 1892
Thanks MkVII for posting the cartoon!
...
About the hunting/target/battle rifle quote, this is repeated ad nauseum by just about everyone I meet at a gun show or gun shop as soon as they learn that I'm interested in Enfields. They all assume that I've never heard it. I just smile and nod, grateful for their erudition. You cannot trip over a mainstream gun magazine article without finding this quote. Usually, the person regurgitating this quote will vary the wording slightly, and they ALWAYS assume you know exactly what the quote means. So, two questions:
1) What is the earliest appearance of this quote (that can be verified)?
2) What exactly is meant by the "hunting" part, as it relates to the Mauser? Is there something about it that makes it especially suitable to a hunting rifle, or was this just made up to round out the generalization? I always assumed the "target" bit referred to the Springfield's sights. The "battle" stuff on the SMLE is obvious: rapidity of action, 10-rd magazine, etc. add up to a great battle rifle. Of course, the P14 amd M1917 are left out of the quote. Maybe they're the best "runner up" rifle.
The other quote about Enfields that you cannot duck is the one about the Germans on the Marne (sometimes another location is cited) "thinking they were facing machine guns," when in fact it was just Tommy and his SMLE. I don't doubt this is true, but must we read about it in every single reference to the SMLE that gets printed? I'm also curious about the earliest appearance of this quote, but I know this one is early. It is mentioned in a BSA publication in 1919, but it could have appeared much earlier.
Err.... assuming an M1903 Springfield isn't that a Mauser?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelago
Its a Mauser with sights that are useless except when shooting bullseye targets on a sunny day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
that is interesting, wonder what the germans felt when the US Marines were picking them off at 700 yards
Assuming WWI, I understood that the majority of US troops were armed with M1917s? Also a (modified) Mauser.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelago
5th And 6th Marines Issued 1903 Springfields
After being sidelined in the deliberations leading up to the Gew.88 commission rifle, the following ten years of development meant that the Mauser bolt action as presented in the Gew.98 can be considered to be the paradigm bolt action, period. Springfield '03 and P14/M1917 actions are based on it.
And the majority of US troop in WW1 were armed with the M1917, as Springfield had totally failed to get its act together as far as production was concerned. Not that Hollywood or US mythology (they're roughly equivalent) goes along with that, but the statistics tell the story (see C.S. Ferris "United States Rifle Model of 1917").
As a shooter I am concerned with accuracy, not rate of fire. And there, BDMP competition results shows that the order for bolt-action rifles is: Springfield 1903-A3, M1917, Enfield No4 (i.e. all those rifle types with peep sights) followed by Swedish Mauser (superb inherent accuracy, but no peep sight) and then the rest. The Enfield No 4 is the only action in the top league that is not Mauser or Mauser-derived.
The trouble with Mausers is the amazing conservatism of the sighting, which means that I have actually fitted a foresight blade intended for a K98k to an M1871. No smithing, no problem. But no progress in sighting over 80 years!
Patrick
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelago
True, the Marines were armed with the '03 but maybe (and that's a BIG maybe) one in twenty or maybe fewer were capable of hitting a man-sized target at 700 yards without a scope. And it wasn't a consistent capability at that but legends die hard. No offense to the USMC, probably the finest fighting outfit anywhere.
maybe so, however the battle history of the 6th and th Marine Regiment included rifles and the 1903 was the issued rifle for the 5th and 6th RegtQuote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
the Germans were rather put off that the insolent Marines could actually kill their troops at 700 yardsQuote:
Originally Posted by gew8805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jc5
It is a real quote, from a German officer. I have the full quote here somewhere in my library, but can't find it. I expect it was from Captain Walter Bloem (later a famous novelist) who wrote a detailed account of the start of the war called "Advance from Mons". His unit, the 12th Brandenburg Grenadiers, were one of the eight German battalions that opened the assault on the British at Mons. Because they initially attacked in close formation, they were shot to pieces by British rifle fire - the Germans actually suffering a defeat in the opening battle. The Germans changed their infantry formation and eventually overwhelmed the British by sheer weight of numbers, forcing them to begin the infamous "retreat from Mons".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelago
I understand, even if only 2 or 3 of my people were killed at that range by rifle fire, I would be..... concerned. And then would tell them to get down and quit walking around in plain sight of the enemy. And then I would have my machineguns unload a belt or two on the offending parties. :cheers:
The Marines have long overcome great handicaps in their equipment w/ superior training and general hard headedness!
If you note the pictures of WWII Marine snipers using 8x Unertl scopes on their M1903's, those tubes are invariably rather farther forward than they "ought" to be. In fact, the end of the tube was just forward of the bolt handle. This wasn't an oversight in forgetting to return the scope to its full rearward position, but rather a field expedient for working the bolt w/o crashing the tube. They accepted the even smaller (!!) field of view so that they could more quickly knock off the enemy. It took a while to figure this one out, but it surely works!
At 700 yards, they were darned unlucky Germans. IMHO of course.
So can anyone explain what is meant by "the Germans had the best hunting rifle"? The target/hunting/battle rifle quote is repeated so often, I would guess that most people understand what it means, but I'd be grateful for someone to explain it.
Also, any idea when this comparison first appeared?
Its just a reference to the characteristics of those early 20th century rifles:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jc5
The Mauser has a slow clunky action, but its massive receiver ring and front locking made it an easy choice to adapt for most calibres of big-game hunting rifles. To a certain extent that still hold true today.
The Springfield '03 - although another Mauser action - had an elaborate rearsight adjustable for windage, etc. US rifles also came equipped with the fancy 1907 sling that lent itself to various types of target shooting position.
The No1 Enfield shoots twice as fast as a Mauser (it was tested under trial conditions), it has the ten round magazine and the simple rear-locking bolt design is far more resistance to mud and other fouling compared to the shrouded lugs in the Mauser action.
The expression appears to date from the 1920s - probably because the pre-WW1 critics of the Lee Enfield had been firmly silenced after its outstanding performance as a battle rifle.
The quote has been attributed to and appears in Roy Dunlap's, "Ordnance went up Front", If I remember correctly. The book details his activities as an ordnance sergeant in WWII.
Breakeyep,
Thanks for identifying that!
Perhaps someone who has a copy within reach could post the exact and full quote?
Heard it and used it!:D
I found an early variation of this quote in the June 1923 issue of "American Rifleman" in an article on the Palma match by Edward C. Crossman, whose books are probably familiar to most readers of this forum. This is the earliest example of this quote I have seen, but there must be an earlier one out there. Keep in mind this is 25 years before Dunlap's "Ordnance Went Up Front."
Here is the exact quote:
"As some German military critic put the matter, the British rifle is a sporting rifle, the American is a target rifle, the German a military rifle, which comes pretty close to stating the facts."
Crossman goes on to praise British rifle for being unbeatable in rapid fire at distances out to 200 yards, but says "it has no chance against our arm in a long-range match." Crossman is talking about putting ten shots into a saucer at 1,000 yards.
Note:
1) Crossman is not the original author of the quote. Crossman is repeating (or paraphrasing?) something he has heard or read from an unnamed "German military critic." Who could this be?
2) Crossman says nothing about a "hunting" rifle. Maybe the saying evolved as it was repeated around the world over time.
3) What does Crossman mean when he endorses the view that the SMLE is a "sporting rifle"? He makes it clear when he calls it "a very speedy, light, fast handling arm which gave fine results in the trenches..."
He talks about the American rifle (presumably the Springfield) as being suitable for long range work---hence the endorsement of it being called a "target rifle."
Unfortunately, his views on the German rifle--and its description as being a "military" rifle---are outside the scope of the article, and so left unwritten.
As this quote about the three rifles evolved, the German rifle somehow became the "hunting rifle"---and I still don't know what that means. The service pattern Mauser doesn't resemble hunting rifles of the WWI era any more or less than the Springfield, except perhaps that its sights were less suitable to target shooting. That hardly makes it a hunting rifle. I really don't think the quote makes much sense as far as the Mauser is concerned, but people keep repeating it.
I'd love to identify the German source that Crossman is quoting.