I've seen posts referring to "black army" 1911's. What iare these and what is back ground history on these? THANKS
Printable View
I've seen posts referring to "black army" 1911's. What iare these and what is back ground history on these? THANKS
During WWI, to speed up production, Colt reduced their prep time before putting on the blue finish. With a rougher metal surface, the normally blue finish took on a darker, almost black finish and later came to be known as the Black Army Finish.
Since acquiring the name "Black Army" they have taken on mystical properties and everyone must have one. It is not unusual for someone to post a pistol in the late 1911 serial number range with a Bubba nickel finish wanting to know if they have a "Black Army".
Almost half of all 1911 production has the black finish.
"Black Army" pistols are most often found w/ a brown frame and slide but with good bluing on the small parts. It looks like a "bitser", but it seems that the finish on the major parts just wasn't as durable. Pistols w/ good overall finish in this subset of 1911's don't turn up rearly as often!
Was there a SN range for these pistols? THANKS
The process started in mid 1918. So s/n 223900 to 717386. This is a rough estimate. Someone here may have a more exact s/n count.
The rough finish that tended to flake off was first used around the 310,000 serial number range and probably phased in completely by the 350,000 range. It ended with the end of 1911 production in 1919 at serial number 629,500. When the "Transition" was produced in 1924 beginning at serial number 700001, the beautiful brush blue finish returned.
Winchester had the same problem with the finish flaking from their heat blued parts, and this was thought to be in part from a change in steels when the receivers were made stronger when smokeless powder came into common use.
This is a Model 1890 showing the flaking on the breech bolt, and complete loss of finish on the front of the receiver. The barrel which was rust blued has virtually all it's original finish.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../2gy7eo7-1.jpg
1918 colt - the finish is original and it wasnt overly durable ,
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ifles015-1.jpg
Looks very nice. Square 10, can we see the entire display?
During WW I, Colt could not produce anywhere near the guns needed, even with Springfield Armory making 1 for every 2 of Colt's. Colt's standard practice of high polished parts and brushed finish was abandoned in or about May 1918 for time sake and a dull dark blue/black finish applied to hasten production efforts. The resulting finish is similar to what we get today by blasting the parts with 220 grit aluminum oxide and applying a cold blue like Dicopan. The rougher black like finish gave way the description of "Black Army's". Serial numbers are likely in the 180,000 to 225,00 range.
Model 1911 pistol production ended at Springfield Armory early in 1917, as Colt had increased production to the point that the small amount of pistols produced at Springfield was no longer needed. Model 1911 production at Springfield was not a separate part of the armory, and the area was needed for Model 1903 Rifle production. Only 2,412 Model 1911 pistols were produced at Springfield in 1917 while Colt produced almost 78,000.
The last 1911 pistol shipped from Colt in May of 1918 was in the 322,000 serial number range, right where the rougher, less polished pistols started. More than likely the time in the blueing ovens was also hurried up.
sure - sorry to be so slow returning ,
ithica M1911A1 and S&W victory
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ifles155-1.jpg
Colt M1911 and S&W M1917
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ifles015-1.jpg
Colt M1905 and Colt M1909
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ifles016-1.jpg
they are in the bottom of this cabinet - rifles are diferant than this photo ,door left = span-am 1893 , 1888 rod bayo trapdoor , 1892/6 krag , center cab= 1899 krag carbine , M1903 , M1903A1 , M1903 mod , M1903A3 , M1903A4gery , door right = M1917 , winder musket trainer , P1914 , and assorted sword/bayonets
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tures004-1.jpg
Superb Display!
A friend of mine had one. He sold it for $900. If i wasn't buying a house at the time it would have been mine. It was the first gun i ever shot. Nice gun jammed a good bit. Later found out he never cleaned it. So being a good friend i hit him over the head.
So, what should one expect to pay for a correct Colt "black army" in say 85% finish condition? THANKS
With most sellers...more than anyone else is willing to pay. That's how auctions work, anyway.
There is no science to it. Who knows what the next guy, or the guy before you is willing to pay?
Most don't know what they're even looking at, let alone what it's worth. That's true of buyers and sellers. Prices are everywhere.
I might tell you what I'd pay, but that's of no value to you because we probably don't value pistols the same way, we may not agree on what is an all correct 85% late 1918-1919 pistol. We're not looking at same pistol on the same day, either.
Some will pay more for pistols at gun shows on Friday than if they'd wait until late Saturday or Sunday. Some won't buy on Sunday at all, so they'll always be willing to pay more on Friday.
You ask a tough question when it does not accompany a specific pistol. I'm not sure there is a "right" answer. If a nice, original piece is offered and you are 1st in line and want it, I wouldn't waste my time asking around for opinions. It'll be gone when you get back.
You got that last part correct Scott. I saw it in a case at a show but still had several rows to check. He wanted more than I wanted to pay but didn't see any others and when I made my way back There was an older gentle man forking over the money. but it worked out a couple months later I found what I was looking for at a small local show for $160 less.
A Square that is a pretty collection.
thank you - didnt mean to hi-jack the thread , i am enjoying the topic , i learn a lot from those that post here
Hey Square 10, I really like your display. It looks portable with doors etc but must really be heavy. Do you take it around to different places for educational display or leave it stationary in one place? Also, I see a set of plans off a plan rack- what type engineer are you? I'm partial to Civil/structural myself!