Questions on a Standard Products

I'm looking at a nice Standard Products with early features and a nice parkerized finish but a few question marks as to how original it is.

Serial number is 2095026 with an Underwood barrel dated 11/43. Can anybody narrow down the manufacturing date?

It has a fabricated trigger housing marked ST, but War Baby! says this wasn't in use until 1/15/44. Any thoughts if this is incorrect for this carbine?

Stock is low wood SH-B with a SH-B marked handguard. It does have a O.G. re-arsenal mark. Butt plate is correct. Wood is nice with just a few dings.

Push safety is unmarked and appears correct as is op rod, trigger. Seer is marked RI, which I believe to be a replacement.

It has a Type 2 unmarked front band, which may be correct if carbine is late enough. No bayonet band marks on barrel.

The rear flip sight is an unmarked except for the "S" on the left. Again, this should be in the realm of possibilities as far as my limited knowledge is concerned. The finish though shows a little more wear and does not match the rest of the carbine and I think I see evidence of round staking marks barely visible under the base plate of the sight but can't remember if round is correct for flip sights.

I can get the carbine for $750 plus tax, which does not sound too bad even if it has been re-arsenaled or even put together. Photos are not an option at this stage, but they had no problems with me partially stripping it.

Your opinions will be appreciated. :beerchug:

Mine is original.

Standard Products pictures

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Originally Posted by Bill Hollinger

Mine is original.

Standard Products pictures

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Nice carbine. I notice you have a fabricated trigger housing too. I see yours is newer than this one. What is your manufacturing date? Feb. '44 like your Underwood barrel?

Also, is your darker finish the finish as built? The one I am looking at has more of the green/gray finish that may be post war. The bolt is parked instead of the correct blue like yours, I guess from being re-arsenaled. I noticed too that your hammer is in the white. the one I am looking at is blued.

I'm still in the dark as far as if the one I am looking at is re-arsenaled or "corrected-ish." Thanks for your help.

Nice Bill, very nice.....Frank

It is in as made condition, original. I'm not quite sure the exact month of build. Let me know if you want other photos and I'll add them to the gallery.

I swear that is the hardest carbine to find in early form. At that price you should be on it like a wet dog on a new suit.

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Originally Posted by Bill Hollinger

It is in as made condition, original. I'm not quite sure the exact month of build. Let me know if you want other photos and I'll add them to the gallery.

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Your photos have been a big help. I have a better idea what I saw after comparing it (or at least as well as my memory allows) to your original one. The SP I'm looking at seems to have mostly SP-correct parts except for the fronts sight (SI B for IBM), the RI seer (Rock Island?) and a CC mag release. I didn't take the bolt out, so I'm not sure about it. I could see the "S" inside the op rod, so I know that is right. I'm beginning to think that this one has been "corrected" beyond the rebuild just because of the large number of SP parts. I still don't know if the SP parts in the carbine would be right for its manufacturing age.

Any idea if all original SP carbines tend to have that darker finish like yours?

I'm not too sure about the finish on others. I have seen a handful and all are darker. The RI sear is made for Inland.

I've seen a few M1 Carbine hammers come and go but only one that was blued, it's also Standard Pro. ty III. Not sure what it all means :confused:

The M1 Carbine OWNER'S GUIDE by Larry Ruth & Scott Duff has some charts in it that give manufactured date ranges for most M1 Carbines. According to it, Std. Pro. carbines from S/N 2030000 to 2129000 were made from Oct. 1 to Dec. 31, 1943. The barrel date on your prospective purchase agrees with that.
I wouldn't call this gospel by any mean but Larry Ruth has had access to plenty of M1 Carbine data in his time and Scott Duff is no slouch when it comes to USGI iron either.
HTH

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Originally Posted by Bill Hollinger

Mine is original.

Standard Products pictures

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Bill, I have 2205955 seems real close to yours, but I have 8/43 UEF barrel.
But it is exactly same color as yours.

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Originally Posted by FTD1167

Bill, I have 2205955 seems real close to yours, but I have 8/43 UEF barrel. But it is exactly same color as yours.

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Wow, 36 numbers off from mine! That is the closest I've heard of. Thanks:D

I've got two. This one and a later one. Might be able to help with questions. What do you think of the Cartouch Bill ? Mike

The cartouche looks good but I would like to see it in relationship and placement to the rest of the stock. The serial numbers are not real crisp in their strikes. Are there signs of a repark?

I'm pretty sure that the SP I am looking at has been mostly corrected, judging from the later trigger housing and the few none SP parts on a re-arsenaled carbine. Considering it has a nice SH-B stock with cartouche, Type 2 band & flip sight, I think that this is still a pretty good buy at $750...depending upon the barrel wear which I will find out about soon.

Anybody beg to differ?

And thanks for all the help.

dnikkor, the trigger housing would be correct for the serial # range.

The brazed trigger housings were in use by August 1943. It's the only one IBM ever used. Standard Products started using the brazed housings on January 15,1944.

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Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill

The brazed trigger housings were in use by August 1943. It's the only one IBM ever used. Standard Products started using the brazed housings on January 15,1944.

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That is how I read War Baby too. I haven't been able to narrow down the manufacturing date, though I am sure it was the fall of '43. Well before the brazed trigger housing was used. My SP I bought last winter was manufactured only a little over 3000 units earlier and the consensus of opinion put it about Sept. '43.

I'm thinking real hard on adding this carbine to my collection even though it probably was one that has been mostly corrected. I really shouldn't financially, but I don't know how I could go wrong with this one.

here is 20961XX with it's stamped BE-B trigger housing and all of it's correct parts except for the rear sight the rifle is a bit later than yours but not by much. WB has wrong info, the trigger housing was requested by SP earlier than Jan 44 and obviously used them well before Jan 44

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P5060003-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by STU1

here is 20961XX with it's stamped BE-B trigger housing and all of it's correct parts except for the rear sight the rifle is a bit later than yours but not by much. WB has wrong info, the trigger housing was requested by SP earlier than Jan 44 and obviously used them well before Jan 44

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The carbine I'm looking at has a ST marked braised trigger housing. I hope you are right. Is that is a type 2 front band on yours? Thanks again and thanks for showing your very nice SP. :beerchug:

Stu when was your carbine made? I ask as Standard Products didn't get the BE-B trigger housings till after 01-25-44 when requested from IBM. Riesch lists the ST marked housings as being used first.

Bruce, i'll have to dig out the data sheet on that particular rifle but if memory serves me correct it was a BE-B but i could have it confused with the Bavarian SP as well; Oct 44 for the manufacture timeframe. dnikkor thanks, it has a type 1 band.

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Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill

Stu when was your carbine made? I ask as Standard Products didn't get the BE-B trigger housings till after 01-25-44 when requested from IBM. Riesch lists the ST marked housings as being used first.

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Hi Bruce, I don't have Riesch's book yet (should be under the xmas tree). When did he say SP started using ST trigger housings? War Baby says they started 1/15/44.

The Standard Products I already have has a BE-B housing. Its serial #209199x was supposedly made in Sept. '43 according to some of the knowledgeable folks here. (Scott & Duff points more to Oct or Nov. '43, which would be nice since it has an Underwood barrel dated 11/43)

Standard Products seem to gravitate towards me. My first carbine was a SP with serial #212099x I bought on Gunbroker and the same sources said it was from late Dec. '43 though Ruth & Duff suggests real early Jan. '44. Shortly after getting this one, I took it to a local gunsmith to be checked out. Another man was there to pick up his SP he inherited from his father-in-law. His was vastly nicer than mine and lived in a great Winchester stock. It most likely was a DCM gun. Mine was pretty worn inside & out and in a M2 stock (a nice one though). Long story short, I paid more than I wanted to, but I bought his and then sold mine. Now an even nicer one may drop in my lap in WWII configuration (barring rebuild mark & some newer non-SP parts).

Do you (or anybody else) have a good guesstimate on manufacturing dates for #209502x & #209199x? Thanks. :beerchug:

just checked my picture files and found a closer shot of the TH, it is marked ST the rifle has a Marlin barrel (undated) had it confused with the Bavarian 21588XX that has a 1-44 Underwood barrel and BE-B TH, also had SP 21287XX my first carbine also with a 12-43 dated I.B.M. barrel, 217XXXX with a Underwood 2-44 barrel BE-B TH and a factory chisel staked squared S flip rear sight. the best i can gather is that 20961XX was made in Sept/Oct of 43 the chart in the Duff/Ruth book is/was a work in progress.

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Originally Posted by Bill Hollinger

Wow, 36 numbers off from mine! That is the closest I've heard of. Thanks:D

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I have Standard Products 2046495 with a 7-44 Underwood barrel.

Is Underwood a "standard" Standard Products barrel? and when would it
have been made?

thanks,

Loy:thup:

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Originally Posted by Loy Hamilton

I have Standard Products 2046495 with a 7-44 Underwood barrel.

Is Underwood a "standard" Standard Products barrel? and when would it
have been made?

thanks,

Loy:thup:

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According to Ruth/Duff, probably Oct. '43. Somebody else might have a better idea. Your barrel would have to be a replacement. SP used a lot of Underwood barrels and thought very highly of them.

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Originally Posted by Loy Hamilton

I have Standard Products 2046495 with a 7-44 Underwood barrel.

Is Underwood a "standard" Standard Products barrel? and when would it
have been made?

thanks,

Loy:thup:

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you have a replacement barrel on your rifle that date is to late for your time frame of manufacture.

Well, I learned a valuable lesson....He who snoozes, looses.
Yes, bought out from under me. At least I have the satisfaction of knowing that the SOB who beat me paid nearly $200 more than I could have bought it for. Valuable lesson, but a painful one too. Hope it got a nice home. :(

dnikkor, The two carbines in the 2.09 range would have a date of about November 1943.

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Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill

dnikkor, The two carbines in the 2.09 range would have a date of about November 1943.

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You brightened my day. If correct, that means my SP serial #212099x could actually have the original barrel, an Underwood dated 11/43. Thanks, I needed that. :beerchug:

I don't know why Standard Products carbines are attracted to me. No sooner than I snooze & loose a real nice one, I run across another one with many if not all early features.....correct flip sight, Type 1 band, push safety AND stock with no rebuild mark. There is a ghost of a cartouche on the right and a strong SH-B in the slingwell. I didn't get a chance to tear into it today, but I will tomorrow. This could really be one of those proverbial "duffle-bag carbines".

The downside? Lots of finish wear. Stock may have been partially sanded and varnished. The barely readable 12/43 dated Underwood barrel has a MW of 2, which ain't bad. Basically this is a rack grade SP, most likely with all the original correct parts and no providence to prove its heritage, and it sure has a patina that is very long in the making. Asking $900, will sell for $700.

This might be a no-brainer to everybody here, but $700 is not a small sum of money this time of the year following a major car repair and the purchase of a Bavarian Rural Police w/flip.

Anybody see any reason (other than that pesky money thing) I shouldn't jump on this like dirty on a hog?

Can you throw me one of these Standards sometime? I can leave my house in the morning and stub my toes on IP's and Rock-Ola's all day, I have never had the pleasure of running into a decent Standard at any price! And the funny thing is I am an hour from the plant.

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Originally Posted by Curt

Can you throw me one of these Standards sometime? I can leave my house in the morning and stub my toes on IP's and Rock-Ola's all day, I have never had the pleasure of running into a decent Standard at any price! And the funny thing is I am an hour from the plant.

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I'd be happy to trade my just purchased SP, all correct in WWII configuration except for the handguard for one of those nasty ol' IP's you keep tripping over. :D

I'll post pics of this carbine soon on the other SP thread I started. :cheers: