Here's a question I can't seem to find an answer on. Did India field any enfield type sniper rifles during any wars. If so, we they home grown, or British issue? I've always been curious about this.
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Here's a question I can't seem to find an answer on. Did India field any enfield type sniper rifles during any wars. If so, we they home grown, or British issue? I've always been curious about this.
I have an RFI "T". Made in 1962 from a British "T". I do not have the 32 for it. The rifle is correct in every detail. From the T and TR to the small "s" No number 51 on butt stock. Whoops, not every detail. The safety lever is Lb. I acquired rifle from Springfield Sporters many years ago. It's history is unknown. All I have is questions. Any new info. gary
This ought to be a really interesting topic...I'm ready to learn more!!!
I thought so, especially since I have not seen it addressed before.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
I've brought the subject up before on this board.
Finding out about Indian No4 MkI T rifles is tough. Much of it is hearsay and very little has been published about them.
I don't know if the Indians used sniper rifles during WWII but I can't see why not.
I do know that at one time the UK sold them a bunch of T rifles with the No32 MkI scopes. I have no idea what condition the rifles/scopes were in.
I have a No4 MkI T rifle that is supposed to be Indian issue. It has been perused by a knowledgeable person that frequents this board. I sent him pics etc. I was worried about the scope bracket's authenticity. He described the bracket and verified the type.
The Indian military, used the No4 MkI T for a long time, then passed them onto the police. There doesn't seem to be any way to verify their history. I was talking to a fellow in Vancouver who claimed to be an armorer in the Indian army. He told me the rifles were in high demand but were mostly in poor repair. He also told me that they did whatever was necessary to keep them going. Spare parts were few and far between. They mixed and matched as needed to keep the rifles functional.
The rifle I have is in a transit chest that looks correct, it has a round edge scope can and a beat up old leather sling. The sling is in fair only condition but is still serviceable. The bracket is unique to the Indian rifles and the caps are held in place with Allen head screws. The caps are also flat on the screw ledges and the screw holes aren't countersunk.
All of the metal on the rifle, other than the scope and bracket are painted with the usual flaking, shiny black paint. The stock is stamped with matching numbers to the rest of the rifle and the scope can has the same serial number painted on it. The scope number doesn't match the number on the butt. The stock has been rough sanded to take down the glare etc.
The fellow I talked to about the rifle said it was all perfectly normal and function was the main priority.
The scope must have been refurbed before the rifle was released from service. All adjustments work smoothly and positively and the lenses are clear, with no signs of blooming. It is missing the adjustment tool that is needed with the Mark I scope. If anyone here has tried to adjust a No 32, Mk I scope, they are a pain in the butt. 3-4 hands are a must.
I am computer challenged so if one of you wants some pics and can post them here I would be glad to send them if you give me an email address through a private message.
I sorted through about 25 No.4 (T)s at Springfield Sporters when they first started advertising them. All were rough and appeared to have been refinished at least once. As I recall, all were re serial numbered. I did purchase one that was marked and upgraded to be a No.4 Mk2 (T). Russell told me that they received no rifles with telescopic sights--India retained them for use on other weapons (model unknown). For the time, the price ($400) was double what it should have been and served to slow down sales.
I totally rebuilt about 70+ and probably close to 90 ex Indian Army No32 telescopes of all marks, from 1, 2's 2/1's from UIC and standard conversions including many with the Far East waterproofing modification plus the usual Mk3's. They were in dire condition but all (?) repairable ..... eventually!
The scope tubes were the worst problem with the stretched, thin ocular ends being corroded through in some cases.
The Indian Army bought large quantities of ex UK Military stockpiles including L1A1 and No4 rifles, Bedford trucks and Centurion tanks from Ordnance stockpiles in Singapore in the late 60's and into the very early 70's.
The brackets on these were the usual Dalglish and Rose Brothers stuff. It is said (but I haven't seen one....) that the veryearliest brtackets had simple screw down cradle caps. These will crush the tube though and that's why you have the taper-lock type screws.
At our Base Workshops where we range tested hundreds of rifles and telescopes the brackets were lightly bored to allow simple allen bolts to be used in the cradle caps. This was just for expedience and speed though.
Where were we...........?
Ah, yes, Indian No4T's. They had hundreds of them.................
If I remember correctly the ones Springfield Sporters had several years ago were about $400.Quote:
Originally Posted by arado
Sorry just saw the price posting above
Don't forget that we left everything there in 1948 except the kit that the British Regiments took to the docks with them. In the late 70's there were Indian Army REME workshops using our old 6x4 Austin Gantry recovery trucks. From the thread above, it would seem that the No4T's went in one direction and the telescopes/brackets came in this direction. Jeeeees, they were both a mess and a challenge. The strange thing is that the serial numbers were all in groups. This lead me to believe at the time that a batch of, say, 30 or so would be shipped to India from the UK as they'd come from H&H, all with telescopes from a similar batch and so on and on
An Indian sniper - the mag cut-off gives it away as a Trials rifle converted to No.4(T) - not sure what the bayonet will do for accuracy. The late Pete Bloom managed to source the scopes that Peter Laidler then helped to rebuild - I've got a picture somewhere of them stacked in a pile before the refurbishment.
The scopes are not quite all done yet......there's till about a dozen in my garage, including UIC Mk2 serial number 9! As has been said they all came in dire condition, but with enough TLC & Peter's input every one is/was restorable.
Can you feel a migraine coming on Peter?!?!?
ATB
Oh, no....., not more............ It's not a migraine I feel coming on...., it's suicide. Surely there's someone else out there.........
Where are the scopes going after refurb?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Payne
Here are some pictures of one, gleaned from the WWW.
I like it. If there was a scope, it would be really nice. These rifles often spent long hours out in the worst weather, at "low altitude", so a pristine sniper rifle just never got fielded. Dreadful!
I actually have a nice one; a 1944 BSA/H&H, complete with the screw through the forend and matching, (upgraded), Mk.3 scope. It's been center bedded and floated on the bearing at the front of the forend. All Indian mods as far as I know. It shoots well too.
Now do I have a reason to be jealous, Brian??? lol
I'm just glad these amazing weapons are being appreciated and saved from the evil clutches of Bubba....
Or the ANTI-Bubba (sort-of): those who try and "improve" a servicable, albeit worn, honest rifle so that it is more "minty". Rescuing from Bubba is all well and good, but some folk want to rub the history from the weapon so that looks like it just came from the factory. Garands are particularly bad in this respect, much as I like 'em, they're now just parts flying in formation.
reblueing, sanding the stocks, removing the history...I like to see wear and dings (ok, not broken in half, but you get the idea...)
On the subject of staking the screws, then if there were a few stake marks in the metal - and this was quite common on well used No4T's, L42's and Browning .30 M1919 locking cramp screws - then we were encouraged to stake the SCREW HEAD into the old stake hole as opposed to stake the metal into the screw slot. This prolonged the life of the rifle on the basis that screws were cheap and plentiful.
Some really nice pics of Bearhunter's Indian sniper he kindly wanted you all to see:
And some more:
I'm going to stick them all up as I found them interesting and presume you will! These include the Ishapore screw:
And finally:
Thanks Ben, I really appreciate you posting these pics for a computer challenged old man.
If the rest of you out there have any comments please feel free.
The rifle will shoot into 3in at 100m with 1989 IVI MKVII ammunition if I do my part. Not any better with hand loads.
That's what I call a good honest-to-goodness well used No4T. And long may it last. And when you find an original bracket I'll go though the process of matching it exactly to the rifle as Armourers across the Commonwealth have been doing for as long as they've been around.
But whatever you do, DO NOT overtighten those allen bolts. If you do, it could be a disaster for the erector cell inside the scope.
I know original brackets are hard to come by. Anyone know where there is one that needs a good home?
Any idea of what the bracket is that is on there now? Is it Indian manufacture for their military or some other repro? There are no markings to indicate manufacturer any where on it.
The only markings are on the caps.
Image of a reputed Enfield Sniper from an auction catalogue approximately 10 years ago. Never seen any thing similar since.
A Complete L42A1 in its chest was estimated at $1,900 in the same auction, whilst this one was estimated at $2,350
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4044/...a83616aa_b.jpg
Simon P. That's a very intersting document. Can somebody translate it or confirm language it's written in. Anybody know the where abouts of the rifle.
The rifle looks to have Parker Hale bases and mounts. Scope looks to be a variable from what I can see of the image. Anybody recognize the Japanese maker. I know somebody has previously asked about the use of Pecars....now some evidence of Japanese scopes.
I think I'd have gone for the L42...........................
Tower 06, sorry for the slow reply but the scopes in my garage awaiting refurb are all destined for my own rifles.....they're nearly all mis-matches, but they don't owe me a lot (was lucky - in the right place at the right time).
ATB
No worries. I though I would ask. I'm ****ed that I didn't jump on the Century snipers when they had them for $299. Would have had a nice addition to my collection.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Payne
OK I'm working on my iPod here so please bare with me but your No.15 chest looks like a CNo.7 .22 trainer chest with an extension added to the bottom. Admittedly the screen I'm viewing the photos on is quite small but that is what I'm seeing.Quote:
Originally Posted by bearhunter
I would say so as well. It certainly looks different from my other No4 T chest.
From Peter's comments about the scope bracket, I don't really know what to think of the rifle. Other than I like it and it is a reasonable shooter. Like I said, the Indian fellow I talked to, told me that they did whatever they had to to keep the rifles functioning as they were and probably still are in high demand. He also said many of the rifles had been turned over to the police forces. It may all be authentic for all I know. I don't really intend on changing anything as it all works so well.
From some of the other comments above, about people refurbishing scopes, this rifle may easily be a parts rifle. I do know that it came into the country and was sold by International Firearms out of Montreal about 15-20 years ago. Supposedly they were sold as received. Who knows. Buy the rifle, not the story they say. The price was right at the time and I took the plunge. I don't doubt that the rifle,sling and pads are authentic, as for the rest of it, that's anybodies guess. One thing though, everyone I've shown the rifle to has never seen a similar scope bracket. Not that they admit to anyway. It's hard to believe that it's a one off.
This rifle belongs to a friend of mine. When he purchased it he was told it was from India and I know very little else about it. I fitted one of DRP's brackets and a MkI scope. It does shoot even with a mixed stock set.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
I have never seen the wrist scrubbed or the ID moved like this. I don't remember if I have posted these pictures before but if I have please forgive the repeat.
Having had a fairly close look at that bracket, it just LOOKS to me as though it's an original that someone with a smooth file and a grit blaster has actually smoothed it off, radiussed the edges smooth, sharpened up the corners and generally what we call it REME technical langage, 'titivated' it. I say that because it looks as though metarial has been taken off as opposed to having been cast like that. And who would go to the trouble while making a one-off fake many years ago, of making the 8x taper-lock screws AND the cutter for the cradle caps.............
Another rough and ready guide, but not as concrete as the metallurgy sample, will be to see where the grat point is after zero. That sorts the good from the crap!
If I was you MJI, I'd ell your friend to invest a few ££ (it'll cost peanuts....) and take it to an engineering design office and ask them to have the steel analysed. It will be either whiteheart (pure) or blackheart (impure) cast. Take an original and they'll compare the two for comparison with simple file cut samples. Do you have those facilities jmoore?
As stated it's one of Rogers 1st. run brackets from several years ago and a $300 MkI from Australia.
I then used my best tools to lash it all up.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...e22d63e2-1.jpg
Cheers
'Precisioneered', eh Jack?! (LOL).
No easy access to analysis labs these days, esp. after the local steel mill closed and the folk I knew there went on to different things, mostly retirement.
Ah, the secret is OUT................. It's one of the original Roger Payne brackets. In that case, there's no point in having it analysed for material as we did it ourselves at Shrivenham because the UK MoD insisted that they be made from the same tried and tested (but SO almost antique...) material.
Does anyone have one on an L42. (And DON'T tell Roger, but I kept the unfinished one provided for steel sampling)
There was a similar sequel to the leather eye caps too. Cooke and Perkins, who had the last batches of 200 and 80 sets made submitted a 'relaxation in standards' or 'request for a change in material spec' for them, suggesting that they could have them made and supplied in pliable plastic material at a quarter the cost but it was turned down flat. They tried the same with the No8 case, with a hard cast plastic, similar but thicker to that used in the last Scout Reiment cases. But this was turned down too. But at least they tested a few samples. The 'problem' was that the rounded corners popped inwards when dropped and then broke as they were pushed out again! So Cooke and Perkins just carried on making the old steel ones at the exhorbitant but profitable cost....................
But they managed to pursuade the MoD that the plastic case for the Scout Reg scope was a good idea and was accepted. Strange world.
There, another useless bit of Enfield sniper info...............
And another thing. Why are my 'post quick reply' answers always not such quick replies?
On the back lip of the box is looks like it says "FED. ARMOURY W/SHP. ?0-1-64" Presumably 1964?Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon P
Surpmil, could it possibly say FED ARMY Workshop? I ask because while I was in Malaya, we side-loaded both ways weaponry between the big Federation of Malaya Army workshops in a place called Batu Cantonment in /near Kuala Lumpur. We used to deal with them a lot. They had most of our old specialised equipment for things like Daimler Ferrets and mine proof Bedford QL and RL trucks while we had the specialised small arms kit.
If it could, then yours might be an ex Malay Army rifle. Just a thought.
There was a big range complex near there and they've recently de-jungled the area for logging and found a crashed Dakota plus the crew, lost since the 50's
Peter, I'm certain it's "ARMOURY". I was wondering about the "FED" bit slightly, but "Federated Malay States" as you suggest(?) of course.
Why not? Poor man's/nation's Enforcer/No4(T): PH mounts and the Hakko scope would be every bit as good as the S&B probably, if that's what it is.
So does anyone know if any of the Ishy 2A's or 2A1's were ever converted to sniper configuration?
I would say with almost certainty, no! But I'll ask our Indian Liaison Officer here if you really need a definitive answer
Was just curious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I bought this rile last week.Quote:
Originally Posted by limpetmine
I need a scope and mount.
Anyone have one?
I agree with you, Peter. The don'ts are written in Malay.
From the top:
Hukuman Menjaga Keselamatan Senjata dan Telescope:- Punishment for failing to take proper care of the weapon and telescope
Tidak dibenarkan:- Forbidden
Bolt, Magazine dan telescope bertukar:- Exchanging the Bolt, Magazine and Telescope.
Telescope dicheraikan dari senjata:- Seperate/ Dismount the scope.
Peluru di dalam magazine semasa simpanan:- Having live rounds in the magazine while in storage.
Penutup len T/scope ditanggalkan:- Having Telescope lens cover removed
Menyimpan lain-lain (lain2) barang di dalam peti ini:- Storing other items in this chest.
Senjata ini disandarkan/baringkan:- Having the weapon leaning against something/ lying on the ground.
Larasnya kotor/ tidak berminyak semasa simpanan:- The bore is dirty/ unlubricated while in storage.
Membawa senjata dengan tidak menggunakan sling:- Not carrying the weapon using the sling.
Siapa-siapa (Siapa2) Membaiki senjata dan telescope (T/scope) selain arma:- Whoever repairs the weapon and telescope other than the armorer.
Siapa-siapa mengadjust t/scope selain arma:- Whoever adjusts the scope other than the armorer.
Note the use of English words like telescope etc. This is because the Malay languange does not have the words to describe rifle components such as bolt and so forth. It is
easier to assimilate such words into the language.
Hope the translation helps.