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i have just purchased a no4 mk1 T sniper rifle 1944 shirly,it has a no32 mk1 scope not matching to rifle,is this important to value of gun , the rifle has all correct marks and matching numbers. the barrell,mag,reciever and other fittings are gray in coulor not the blued is this normal
any comments would be appreiated
regards steve
Photos would help those knowledgeable on this topic :)
Hi ... :)
Here's a link to a Q&A thread that may help you get more answers and improve the quality of the ones you do get. :thup:
What can you tell me about my rifle? (click here)
Also, check the 1944 Enfield No.4 Mk1(T) Sniper Rifle (Mfg by BSA Shirley - M47c) displayed in the England - Milsurp Knowledge Library.
Perhaps compare all the markings on your No.4(T) against it, which may help you somewhat to ascertain correctness.
Regards,
Badger
thanks for your help.i will post some pics soon as i work out how [newto forum] regards steve
Look at here.
How do I post pics? - A tutorial by Wally - Military Surplus Collectors Forums
Regards
Gunner
Steve, At Hollands' the metal was refinished in a process called brunofixing, which as I understand it, is similar to, but predates parkerizing.
Value to the strict collector is always diminished if non matching parts are employed in No.4(T) kit. A '44 production rifle, depending when H&H did the conversion would have a Mk.2, Mk.2/1 or a Mk.3 'scope...depending on what was in stock. Mk.1 'scopes are desireable to those with earlier (T)s and can be traded.
Brad
Actually, I know of two early '44 rifles that apparently were fitted w/ No.32 Mk.1 scopes at H&H, but may have been pulled from earlier rifles. They are matching, but its an odd thing. One would have been a fluke, but 2? Makes me wonder if some trials rifles got robbed or something... but its a whole different subject. Waiting for some more evidence.
Never say never...
The telescopes were examined at the makers, passed and transported directly to H&H in corrugated cardboard boxes, protected with rolls of corrugated cardboard. Each box contained, so far as Sid Harvey remembered, about 30 telescopes. And the hard cardboard boxes all went back too! Such was the dire need!
He didn't remember anything about the different mark of scopes but suffice it to say, as the telescopes went to H&H straight from the makers, it's unlikely that they'd be wildly out of sequence. I dare say that some telescopes were diverted at the factories to Weedon as simple spares stockholdings. Big sacking material bags of leather eyecaps were also supplied directly and these came in the Royal Mail no less......, being pretty light I would assume. These were fitted at the end of the line, after the out-inspection.
As a matter of interest, when we had telescopes available from Ordnance as replacements as and when the need arose, they came in a little cloth bag with a fold-in top, approx 3.5" wide by the length of the telescope. You could JUST fit a telescope plus bracket at a squeeze but they didn't come with the bracket. The cloth bags were a very tough but rough off white/pale cream colour material that I think was called 'sailcloth' They were wrapped with a piece of string on which the little OHMS label was tied. Sometimes, the telescope number was stencilled on the bag. I wonder if they were supplied to Ordnance in these bags.............
There, another little bit of useless Enfield info
Steve (sjt351), is the rifle S/N an "A" prefix?
No such thing as useless Enfield info :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
jmoore, If there is ever a coat of arms designed for Lee-Enfield collectors it'll have to have "nunquam narro nunquam" on a banner somewhere! :rofl:
Brad
numbers on rifle are m47c ,1944, h34955,TR, and T on the reciever, but the barrel ,reciever, pads, magazine ,are all battleship grey is this any help
Is this battleship grey PAINT or a deep grey phosphate?
I had to get #2 child with the 108 average in Latin to read this to me.
Never say never.....
We should get Eddie H. to make a banner... :lol:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradtx
Steve,
There are most definitely some late Watson Mk1 scopes that are dated 1944. I did hear that the William Watson factory was bomb damaged courtesy of the Luftwaffe & was late in changing over from Mk1 to Mk2 scopes, though I am not sure if this has been corroborated.......Peter, know anything about this?
ATB
You're right about that of course DRP, there was a bunch of WW Mk1telescopes dated 1944. But to be honest, I don't think it mattered too much to the sniper whether he got a Mk1 or 2 telescope although the instructors were definately aware that the '...newer, more easily adjustable Mk2 telescope...' was coming on stream. FINER adjustmnent perhaps, but certainly not easier adjustment I'd suggest, but there you go!
I look at it as a newer pattern Bedford or Land Rover. Something that is coming on stream but you'll still have the old ones until..... And they weren't going to stop Mk1 production and waste all the parts. Canada had the obvious solution in using the prepared/in-hand Mk1 tubes and fitted Mk2 clicker plates, making them effectively Mk2's....... but calling them Mk1A's
The short answer is that I don't think that they'd be allowed to waste the parts that were in hand but WW seem to be the last of the Mk1's don't they
Pics of rifle ... :)
One interesting point to come out of sjt's photos is that his WW 1942 dated Mk1 telescope number 1950 is that you can see that the 2 of 1942 has over-engraved the previous 1 of its original date of 1941. This clearly gives the scope number collectors an idea of when annual production changed.....1941 - 42 was approx 1950. That is a production run of 950 telescopes for 1941.....
I have also seen this on Watson 2108............
God, it's snowing too.................
The gray paint is certainly not how it left H&H. Check the finish in areas where its not painted, such as under the handguards or similar. Definitely, done after it left service, as the exit proof marks on the muzzle are painted over. So, what's under the gray? More paint (camo or suncorite?), blue, or phosphate...?
What exactly is the mark on the right front of the action body, fwd of the ejection port? "*1"?
I also have a "dual" dated scope, but I think the number's a bit lower. Will check.
Just to add to the collected knowledge and confusion:
Here is my 1944 T, which has the number of a Mk 1 HBM scope clearly marked on the butt stock.
I don't have that scope, but sure wish I did. Been looking for it since 2003, when I realized what the rifle was.
Would like to know the story on this one.
CnR collector, your rifle just taught me something.......All of the A?-four digit 4T rifles I've ever seen have been 1943 dated. I had assumed that the adoption of the 5 digit serial commencing with a '3' started at the very outset of 1944..... (& indeed I still am pretty certain it commenced very early on in 1944) but your rifle has a '1943 mfr serial number' yet is clearly dated 1944, so there must have been a little run-over. Like you said nunquam narro nunquam!
ATB
Just to screw everyone up a little more:
Here is my girl: AV3602 1943 dated with a Watson Mk II scope. Fortunately I have the matching scope and mount, just the scope can is MIA.
So maybe one can say that these two rifles are Dec. 31st-Jan 1st production??
Thanks Roger! You have seen my pic's before, when I got a mount from you in '04 or so.
I am still on the hunt for that scope, but enjoying the rifle now at 300 yds. with my Watson MK1.
Chuck Julian, formerly in NJ, but now FREE in SC, for the time being.
Thanks Chuck, the serial must have passed me by in '04. Either that or Alzheimer's is setting in!
ATB
Roger,
You may remember my rifle when I remind you of the "story".
This is the one I paid $10 for in the early '70's, when I purchased about 5 "old Enfields" from a dealer that had a "pile" of them. I got them for myself, and friends that did not have Firearms ID Cards in NJ. I delivered/transferred the others to my friends, and the "T" was the one left over at the end.
(have the paperwork with the sn's, but have never researched the others - may have to do that someday, but don't really want to know)
Luck of the draw I guess.
Was planning to make a "rainy day" deer rifle out of it for hunting at a friends family farm in NY state, but FORTUNATELY never did. It just went into the closet, and only came out for cleaning/oiling a few times per year.
Then, in 2003, I discovered what it was.
Regards, Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year!
Chuck
and, for those thinking that I am a lucky guy, believe me when I tell you that this is the ONLY good thing that has ever happened to me!
Hey CnR, when you have luck like finding a No4T, then you don't need too many other good things. I would suggest that living in SC is a pretty good thing to happen.
And have a GOOD Christmas too............
Whoops, just remembered before taking off- My 1941/2 overstamp Watson is S/N 1990, so no help there for an earlier change over number.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
This 1990 to 2108 will only be a ball park change-over area as in the early days of writing the numbers down, in a few pages of an old work book, I didn't even bother to log anything but the numbers. It was only during the 80's onwards that I started to note other detail. If anyone's got an overstamp OUTSIDE these numbers it'll be interesting. But there you go, those are the dates of WW Mk1, 41 to 42 changeover
hello peter laidler and jmoore
would you consider my rifle to be a fake. should i have it rebleued or leave it as is the gray coulor , should i try to swap for a mk 2 scope
regards steve
On a personal front, I'm not an originality freak but a plain and simple Armourer and anything that came into our workshops only ever came in because something was wrong with it. We fixed it and it went out repaired to the best we could and functional. If it came into our workshops, as many did, painted in kakhi or camouflaged, the it'd be stripped back and made good. So if I was you, I'd have it degreased and painted with the standard British Army sunkorite paint, oven baked for a few hours, greased and assembled then put back in its chest or into the armoury. That's as original as it gets.
As for the telescope, we never saw many Mk1's after the mid 60's or so but there were still a few in the system on old tired No4's, you just need to remember that a Mk2 telescope won't make the rifle any better or shoot better. It just makes your chance of a HIT a bit better and that's only out at longer ranges. In other words, if it ain't broke, then don't fix it.....
I saw a grey painted one for sale here in Australia several years ago.
Nothing so far screams fake, but (just my opinion)the gray paint ought to go. I'd carefully strip it to see what's underneath. If there's a half decent finish left, leave it! Refinish as a last option. Unless you can round up the scope that went with it originally it probably won't matter if its a Mk1.Quote:
Originally Posted by sjt351
I'd swap you my Mk2, but its the only one I have and its very happy on its current (mismatched to it) rifle. Now if it was S/N 5966(?) or 124 then I'd beat the doors down! Please don't tempt me too much though... Not sure from your original post whether the bracket matches the receiver number, I wouldn't swap off that part, but they're usually quite well staked. Have you looked at "Angel's" matchmaking forum on this site?
BTW There's internet in TN! And been up 23 hours straight -again...
hello peter and jmoore
thank you both for your help
jmoore if you ever want to swap your mk2 for a mk1 please let me know
all the best for the new year steve
Thought I might upset you there for a minute, but it was 9765 that I had, on checking!
I rather doubt many or even any Mk3 scopes saw service before the war's end BTW. The MkI's and Mk2's were on issue and we know how the QM types think...
What makes you think the scopes were used when fitted?Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
Of course in 40 odd years of subsequent service lots of swapping around happened.
Not wishing to show any disrespect or contradict you Peter but I have something you might find interesting on this subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Over the last year I have owned 3 late war No4T’s all fitted with Taylor-Hobson scopes. One was dated 1944 and the other 2 1945. Of the 3 the highest scope serial number is on my “U” prefixed 1945. The next highest was on my 1944? This prompted me to start a small survey of publicly posted serial numbers on matching examples fitted with Taylor-Hobson scopes. To date I’ve run across 7 rifles so far. As you can see below the rifles serial number and scope serial numbers do not clime sequentially with each other. Again I want to add these numbers were found on publicly posted photos of matching No4T’s. I have xx’ed out the last digits of the serial numbers to protect the owners of these rifles however. I believe the 1946 dated rifle to actually be a 1944.
Year, Rifle Serial Number, Scope Serial Number, Scope Maker,
1944 C37xxx 250xx Taylor-Hobson
1944 C37xxx 244xx Taylor-Hobson
1944 M30xxx 244xx Taylor-Hobson
1944 R33xxx 247xx Taylor-Hobson
1945 T33xxx 241xx Taylor-Hobson
1945 U34xxx 250xx Taylor-Hobson
1946 ? F35xxx 246xx Taylor-Hobson
Now on the subject of the Grey paint. In the posted photos the shade looks very similar to the Grey Teflon applied to the Ingles Mk2* 9mm HP pistols reputedly done in Belgium. Did they do this to any of their other arms?
As far as one example goes; mostly the faded scope finish as compared to the rifle's finish, which is quite good - the electropenciled markings are turning brownish, but no "bluing" or paint ever was in the lettering. I have good reason to believe its as assembled by H&H, but it surely struck me as being a wee bit strange when I first saw it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Surpmil
Granted, the rifles and scopes don't seem to "age" equally if they are in other than crispy, new condition. However, NIB stuff doesn't interest me as much, so I've learned to pay attention to tell-tale usage (and "humpage") signs. Still learning, though!
OK with the kind help of Lance I have two more numbers to add to my small survey.
1944 B35324 with 24983
1945 V36106 with 24479
Thank You very much Lance!
In my PM to him I mentioned I was considering taking on the job of a full sized No4T serial number survey to which he reacted quite positively. To this end I have decided to take on the project. I don’t wish to further hijack this thread so please don’t forward any numbers to me just yet. I wish to develop the spread sheet and come up with the goals of the survey as well as consult with Badger first. I will start a new thread with in the next week or so assuming this all meats with Badgers approval.
Refreshing sjt351's thread as it ties into the "Grey No.4" thread.ETA: Just sharing the cumulative opinions- I believe Peter Laidler's words carry a lot more weight than mine!:
Link here for more info on the ~neutral grey painted No.4 rifles:
Grey No 4
---------- Post added at 03:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:03 AM ----------
The grey paint WAS added later, as further investigation has shown. It was "correct" for '60s Belgian Army use but not "original" to the rifle. It likely left Hollands' with a blued finish- seems too early for Brunofix. If FTR'd at any point, it likely had Suncorite under the grey paint, and should still be intact.
I reckon my opinion is worth what you paid, unfortunately! Whether removing the grey paint hurt the value of the rifle is a whole 'nuther question. If done properly, I shouldn't think there would be much harm done (unless you are Belgian.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Would this be a Belgian chest?
That sure looks like Belgian markings to me.
Agreed. It's definitely stencilled up in French: Fusil = Rifle; Lunette = scope.
ATB
Thank you for that gentlemen.
That's a good idea, except that how can one tell which are original scope to rifle fittings and which are not? Only by looking at detailed photos of the scope, rifle, bracket and butt wrist I assume.Quote:
Originally Posted by No4Mk1(T)
You got it. Any rifle still bearing it’s S51 stamp and serial number with no bared through scope serial numbers would be a prime candidate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Surpmil
With regards to the No4(T) survey I am still (slowly) working toward doing this but life has stepped in the way and left me with little computer time in the last year and a half or so. As it stands at this moment I suspect it will still be into the fall of this year before I’ll be able to follow through with this. More to come in time but for now I’ll leave it at that.
Ditto: there was one for sale in Toowoomba a couple of years ago.
Same grey paint.
Interestingly, the paint is very tough and seems very similar to the finish on the Belgian FN-49s that were available in Oz in the "good old days". Those FNs basically came in two grades. Mechanically very good but externally scruffy ones were painted black and the overall nice ones generally came in that very tough grey finish. All were in .30-06 and all had their Belgian crests ground off the receiver before the finish coat was applied.
Any experts on Belgian military ordnance and maintenance procedures out there?