Churchill + Sten

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...scan0001-1.jpg

Here is a photo that would seem to have been taken on the same occasion as the photo on the dust jacket of Peter Laidler's excellent "The Sten Machine Carbine". The other gentleman in the photo is Mr. Thompson, Churchill's bodyguard.
It is hard to see in the scan, but the rear sight on this gun is non-standard. It appears to be made with a curved saddle which partially wraps around the head collar. In the dust jacket photo, you can just see that the gun has a sling swivel fitted to the front of the barrel nut. The gun was no doubt a prototype of the Mk. II, and these features were not incorporated in production guns.

Here's one of my favorites -
That's Bradley and Eisenhower on either side checking out the new M1 carbine.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...28554ba2-1.jpg


This one is pretty well known, but still interesting.
The German propaganda ministry tried to use it as a leaflet to drop on England, but it backfired.
(Most of the English took it as a compliment!)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...llMurder-1.jpg

Cool pics

Yes, it's taken on the same occasion at the Shoeburyness Proving Establishment on 13th June 1941. Just behind the PM out of shot on the left is Captain David Margesson, the Conservative Chief Whip, who was briefly Secretary of War at the time.

Just currently researching Inspector Thompson, who was Churchill's Close Protection Officer Met Police and his favoured side arms, and came across this photo, which I believe is the wide angle shot of the closer shot and different angle on Peter Laidlers book jacket taken on the 13th June 1941.
Thompson is in the pin striped suit on the right, always carried a S&W .38 but changed to a Colt .45 later tucked in his belt.

Who needs hearing protection when you have bowler hat and a cigar!

Most were probably half deaf from WW1 service anyway I guess!

Inspector Walter Thompson was a dedicated bloke to Churchill from all accounts and were inseparable. As a Special Branch officer for many years he was described by Churchills wife Clementine as "Churchills Shadow", the title of his book many years later.
He was a stickler for the .38 S&W but later moved over to the 1911 .45. He rarely shot either and IMHO was very lucky that noone tried to attack Churchill throughout his period as Personal Protection Officer, as a waste band is the last place to try to recover a pistol quickly!!!.

He did manage to shoot himself in the leg with the 45 though!

Thats why Police Officers are called "Marksman" not "Snipers". :lol::lol:

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

Inspector Walter Thompson was a dedicated bloke to Churchill from all accounts and were inseparable. As a Special Branch officer for many years he was described by Churchills wife Clementine as "Churchills Shadow", the title of his book many years later.
He was a stickler for the .38 S&W but later moved over to the 1911 .45. He rarely shot either and IMHO was very lucky that noone tried to attack Churchill throughout his period as Personal Protection Officer, as a waste band is the last place to try to recover a pistol quickly!!!.

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You would have thought given his position, Churchill would have been able to get hold of a US issue M3 or M7 shoulder holster for Thompson's 1911....??

The way I understand it, he was a CPO who did his own thing, much encouraged in Special Branch in those days, so into his trouser band it sat. He probably, and quite rightly always feared his boss was a "real" target by the Nazi's and needed to be ready to respond!!

When I was looking at these pics again the thought that came to my mind was, "who in the current lot" would be caught dead in front of a camera with a gun of any kind in his hand?" I don't want this to devolve into a political discussion but I just love the fact that the leaders of the period weren't afraid of being seen with the tools of the trade.


Bob

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Originally Posted by Bob Womack

When I was looking at these pics again the thought that came to my mind was, "who in the current lot" would be caught dead in front of a camera with a gun of any kind in his hand?" I don't want this to devolve into a political discussion but I just love the fact that the leaders of the period weren't afraid of being seen with the tools of the trade.


Bob

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Canada's previous Prime Minister (Stephen Harper) was photographed firing a Lee Enfield (specifically an EAL iirc[pic shows sporterized LE]) on a Northern Ranger excercise a few years ago...

Attachment 98604

Bob,
Interesting point, but perhaps we should take ourselves back to those heady days before massacres and useless killings in our streets of today that eventually curtailed the owning of pistols or automatic weapons of any kind in many countries!

In comparison and directly involved with Churchill and Walter Thompsons era, I can see where the blase attitudes came from, there was nothing like the restrictions on anybody that we endure today.

The days when you could lay your rifle above the fire place in farmhouses on purpose built brackets, no lockable cabinets etc.

I can remember when I started the first firearms team in my Police Force in the UK. Each major station had an armoury, weapons were left there in all manner of states, uncleaned, rusty basically in a dire situation. All you had to do was to get an Inspectors OK and withdraw a weapon, as long as you were a recognised ex serviceman competant with weapons!! Until we brought in a register, I often went down to the basement and the armoury and cleaned the guns to an exceptable level.

How would they have known, unless those individuals earmarked at each station had been tested on a range. It was definitely a case of, if your face fitted, you were allowed to take a weapon out, there was no control, especially if there had been an armed robbery, and they needed armed officers on the street quickly, all rules broke down.

I know the same policy existed in the Mets and other major forces, and it was only when ex service people intervened and said we must stop giving guns out willy nilly to basically untrained officers, that the Home Office agreed to put control on every force.

These were the days, that if a provincial force had a murder, a Detective Superintendent was sent out from New Scotland Yard to assist the force with the investigation.......yes its fact and unbelievable!!

So back to Churchill and Thompson his bodyguard. He was never an ex serviceman, so did not have that inbuilt regime built in him or the discipline needed to carry, he was slightly unorthodox as the image below will show.
He wore gloves when clearly he would know it would impede any use of a weapon quickly, he was in short Churchills personal friend in reality, especially as the IRA even then wanted him dead, the risks were real.

All the photos of Churchill firing guns was mostly public relations exercises, but also a curiosity, from a former ex serviceman on how the new technology worked compared to his days in the Boer War.

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

I know the same policy existed in the Mets and other major forces, and it was only when ex service people intervened and said we must stop giving guns out willy nilly to basically untrained officers, that the Home Office agreed to put control on every force.

These were the days, that if a provincial force had a murder, a Detective Superintendent was sent out from New Scotland Yard to assist the force with the investigation.......yes its fact and unbelievable!!

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Yep, I can remember the last time it happened within the Met., in the aftermath of the 3 coppers being shot in Braybrook Steet, and in the subsequent search for Harry Roberts. I did think though that in the Met it was only the known ex-servicemen that were issued, although back in 1966, there weren't a huge number serving then that hadn't seen service, given National Service had only ended 5 years earlier.
My old man was a dog handler at the time and a WW2 vet, and when they were using the dog section to search a lot of the fields/farmland out to the west and north-west of the Met district, searching for Roberts, Dad was issued with one of the old Webley's, and I can remember as a wide eyed kid, him bring it home on a few nights much to my Mum's astonishment. It was the only time my old man carried an issued firearm during his 30 years of Met service.
It was as a result of Braybrook St, that prompted the Met to create a specialist firearms unit.

There’s a good news film of Westmorland Police on a manhunt for a murderer (he shot and killed a Police Officer at Oxenholme Station) in 1965. In it you can see officers carrying Enfield No.1 rifles and Webley revolvers. My Dads best mate and mentor, Geof Harrington arrested the mentally ill murderer after he was shot in the leg. Geoff received an MBE for his service in the early nineties. He really should have been awarded a bravery medal at the time as he was unarmed when he made the arrest. But....those officers of the day didn’t expect attention or reward, they just cracked on with it.

Fallen police officer remembered at Oxenholme | Border - ITV News

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Originally Posted by Brit plumber

He really should have been awarded a bravery medal at the time as he was unarmed when he made the arrest. But....those officers of the day didn’t expect attention or reward, they just cracked on with it.

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Indeed, and with no body armour, no tasars, no sprays and often walking your beat on your own, with nothing more than a trucheon and a whistle.

My Dad was awarded a QCBC in 1974 (along with 3 other PC's) for disarming an armed bank raider in West London in Oct 1973. The guy was Army, and had gone AWOL with a loaded SLR and had held up a bank in Gloucester before heading towards London and attempting a raid on a Barclays about half a mile from Hayes nick. One of the customers was an off-duty PC, who managed to raise the alarm, just as Dad and his dog van partner were leaving Hayes nick after a refreshment break. They arrived just as chummy was legging it to his car carrying a bag of cash and the SLR, Dad saw his chance as he was trying to manoevre the SLR in the confines of the car and tried the rear door which was unlocked and jumped in behind him and wrestled him into a head lock, as then the other two managed to get the SLR out of his hands via the front doors. The SLR was loaded, can't remember though now if there was one in the chamber though. I've still got my Dad's old police diary covering that day, and he covered it with hardly any drama in a succinct 3 lines worth in his usual 'just doing his duty' manor.
All 3 were awarded the QCBC at the old London GLC building in spring of 74 by the then Marshall of the RAF. The squaddie got 5 years. I don't whether that was courtesy of a RMP establishment or not though?

The current PM would piddle his panties were he asked to fire a gun!

Yes they were the days of "make and mend" and just get on with it, which is exactly what Thompson's attitude did.
Whilst his bosses kept Churchill appeased with a good friend as his CPO, they didn't care what he got up to.

Fascinating times in the Police Service then, and I remember clearly clearing out 4T's and L42A1's without a care from each major Police station to make way for the latest technology, hundreds of telescopes, binos etc all of which incidently weren't making anything on the open market as Milsurps didn't even feature.

The old school coppers with rows of medals on their chests had had enough of fighting and certainly didn't feel the need to buy any secondhand guns off its own Police Force.
They were all bought by Firearms dealers spread around.

In fact speaking to our Force Armourer yesterday who I have known for years, he's a retired firearms officer, he crushed hundreds of weapons last week which in his own words "would make a grown man cry". Crushed because they are not allowed to sell them on anymore a new Home Office policy.
How times have changed!!

And here I thought I was going to see a Churchill tank with a Sten