"ZF" marking on Enfields?

Hi Peter … :)

I had an email from someone asking about his Savage No.4 Mk.1/3 Lee Enfield, which has the marking "ZF" on the right side of the buttstock. He wanted to know what that meant and he said he was told:

"ZF" = Beyond local repair except at factory

I guess his question is, that if it hasn't been through an FTR (Factory Thorough Repair) process someplace, is this rifle safe to shoot?

From an armourer's perespective, can you provide any clarification as to a more exact meaning of this marking and provide recommendations to members who may come across a rifle with this marking on it?

Thanks … :beerchug:

Regards,
Badger

The short answer to this is that the ZF marking to an Armourer means that this is the end of the line.

The Z means that it has been condemned at a Base workshop (that's the Z bit) as suitable only for a Factory Repair (that's the F part). This will indicate something to do with a part that cannot be rectified at Base Workshop and that is inevitably a damaged body. On a No4 rifle, this is what we call 'the master component', a part that is NEVER supplied as a spare part through the Ordnance channels.

There was only one other mark that was more extreme than ZF and that was ZF-BER. Which meant that in addition to the ZF, one of the examiners had decreed it to be beyond economic repair in any case. But effectively, both were the same......................

There was a milder Z-BER which indicated that it wasn't even worth sending to the factory and at workshops, these were torched!

So, the rifle your correspondent is referring to falls into one of three categories
1) scrap
2) very scrap
3) Extremely scrap

Interesting, while I am also aware of the ZF designation ... I've got a Savage No4 Mk1* that was used right throughout the 1960's as a Fullbore target rifle that also has it original Savage marked stock with ZF on the right side the of the butt stock and R ( Repair ) over REME on the left. The rifle has an almost perfect 2 groove barrel and shoots very well with no sign of trouble from me.

I wonder if there were some ZF marked rifles that fall into the same category as some DP'd rifles.

Tiki.

The answer is where the mark was placed: On the butt stock. The receiver was scrapped, and the butt stock re-used(the Brits NEVER threw anything away that was still usable). So while the butt is still marked ZF, the receiver the mark was intended for is probably long gone.

Jona, that was pretty much where I was at with my '43 Longbranch. The rifle is all matching (un-numbered magazine) with a '43 dated 2 groove barrel and still has grease under the handguards, cond. VG+! There are no marks anywhere that weren't on it when it left the factory other than the commercial proof stamps at the muzzle and the ZF on the butt. I can only assume it had a previously used butt fitted at some stage....

Hello, Simon; any chance of a pic of the "repair" markings on your butt? I assume that would indicate a receiver repair/ change. Wondering if there's anything to indicate what was done...?

Peter, did they send them back XX/ZBLR or ZF for re- coating with suncorite if the finish on the metal got too thin/ shiney or even rusted, or was the painting/ re coating able to be done at a lower level of repair?

Here's a couple of pics of mine... any/ all comments welcome...

Edited by Moderator: Content unrelated to topic being discussed.

G'day Brad and Merry Xmas mate!

Here's the makings on my Savage butt stock.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g?t=1262059512

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g?t=1262059647

Cheers.

Edited by Moderator: Content unrelated to topic being discussed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Son

Jona, that was pretty much where I was at with my '43 Longbranch. The rifle is all matching (un-numbered magazine) with a '43 dated 2 groove barrel and still has grease under the handguards, cond. VG+! There are no marks anywhere that weren't on it when it left the factory other than the commercial proof stamps at the muzzle and the ZF on the butt. I can only assume it had a previously used butt fitted at some stage....

Hello, Simon; any chance of a pic of the "repair" markings on your butt? I assume that would indicate a receiver repair/ change. Wondering if there's anything to indicate what was done...?

Peter, did they send them back XX/ZBLR or ZF for re- coating with suncorite if the finish on the metal got too thin/ shiney or even rusted, or was the painting/ re coating able to be done at a lower level of repair?

Here's a couple of pics of mine... any/ all comments welcome...

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I would have to agree that at the very least your butt plate has been replaced as Long Branch No4’s came with ether a Blued steel or Zamac (sp.?) one. Is your butt stock LB marked? Also to the best of my knowledge Canadian FTR’s were not painted with Suncorite. The 4 or 5 in my collection are all Park’ed. In 1943 the original finish would have been blued.

I can assure you that IF you had a 'chit' from the WO 1 you could indeed have a brand new and UN-numbered spare receiver issued AFTER you turned in the old and condemned one.All that I saw were dated 1943 at that point although I LATER saw a few used to FTR British rifles with dates in the 1950's.These appeared when the "War Reserve"No 4's were sold off a Surplus in the 90's and imported to Canada.Just like the FIRST Canadian Arsenals made No2MkI* 9mm pistol slide I ever saw was when I was issued a Hi-Power to go shooting one Wednesday afternoon at the 25yd range behind the Parachute Reg't Museum at Aldershot.I was a popular lad there due to my having 'arranged' the new engines for their Dak that paid for the Geodesic Dome over said aircraft.
Canada DID have spare receivers sans any numbers for the No4's as well as the better known C No7 .22's.JR

Quote:

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Originally Posted by No4Mk1(T)

I would have to agree that at the very least your butt plate has been replaced as Long Branch No4’s came with ether a Blued steel or Zamac (sp.?) one. Is your butt stock LB marked? Also to the best of my knowledge Canadian FTR’s were not painted with Suncorite. The 4 or 5 in my collection are all Park’ed. In 1943 the original finish would have been blued.

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The buttplate is brass. There are a few confused marks in the back of the trap, the only marks on the plate itself are on the inside, between the screw hole and butt trap. It has an inset "F" and a raised "FI" below.

The butt has B over 56 and the C with the broad arrow in it directly behind the trigger guard underneath.

You can see my confusion- the butt ZF marking, all original '43 parts (except butt and plate?) no FTR or even repair markings, but painted with suncorite and still greased!

Late British tidy up (paint- hence my Q for Peter...) - butt and buttplate replaced from the used parts box before sale?
Who knows-
Who cares I suppose... It looks very nice.

I can assure you that IF you had a 'chit' from the WO 1 you could indeed have a brand new and UN-numbered spare receiver issued AFTER you turned in the old and condemned one(this was at No25 CAOD).All that I saw were dated 1943 at that point although I LATER saw a few used to FTR British rifles with dates in the 1950's.These appeared when the "War Reserve"No 4's were sold off a Surplus in the 90's and imported to Canada.Just like the FIRST Canadian Arsenals made No2MkI* 9mm pistol slide I ever saw was when I was issued a Hi-Power to go shooting one Wednesday afternoon at the 25yd range behind the Parachute Reg't Museum at Aldershot.I was a popular lad there due to my having 'arranged' the new engines for their Dak that paid for the Geodesic Dome over said aircraft.
Canada DID have spare receivers sans any numbers for the No4's as well as the better known C No7 .22's.Spare UN-numbered Inglis Hi Power frames were ALSO available.JR

In the U.S. we have three levels of maintenance Field, Intermediate and Depot level, items marked “beyond local repair” ended up at depot level for disposition.

From reading Mr. Laidler’s comments he is referring to “field” level disposition and not “depot level disposition”.

At depot level an end item can torn down and the worn components scraped and disposed of and be re-born during overhaul with the same serial number. I made these decisions for 25 years and wrote the work packages for the work to be performed.

It sounds like we have people here who were at “different levels” of British and Commonwealth maintenance making comments.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._Page_01-1.jpg

Hello Ed:

This was related to me by a now deceased Canadian Army RCEME Armourer late of Truro Nova Scotia.Elliot Campbell was his name and he was a truly lovely man as well as a well of information.

In brief Elliot joined the Canadian Army and was a RCEME Armourer BEFORE WWII was declared in 1939.

Most of us CANADIAN Enfield "Nuts" have two"holy grails" as it were.The First being an unfiddled with Long Branch No4MkI(NO STAR) and the other being a Long Branch No4MkI*T.I am lucky enought to have both.

It seems that in early 1945 a"Change Order" was issued down the Canadian Army's chain of command that mandated the CONVERSION of ALL UNIT HELD No4MkI rifles to No4MkI* status.According to Elliot unit level armourers HAD the necessary fixtures to effect the change too.You were to DISASSEMBLE any No4mkI rifles down into their component parts and then TRANSFER all the parts(obviously NOT the bolt catch etc) to a brand new and un-numbered No4MkI* receiver and then RENUMBER the new receiver to the OL or 1L number and after it passed all inspections return the rifle to unit stocks of SERVICEABLE Rifles.The now stripped No4MkI receivers were to be either destroyed or returned to Ordnance for disposition.

No25 CAOD was Canada's CENTRAL Ordnance Depot at the time I was posted there to "acquire" the necessary skills" to be our Unit Armourer as a 15 year old Reservist(MILITIA) in the Victoria Rifles of Canada.I came in on a waiver being UNDER the age of 17 the normal age for attestation with parental consent.By age 17 I was an Officer Cadet in McGill University's COTC.I REALLY ENJOYED my summer at No 25 and learned a lot the 'hard way'.we were ALL volunteers and the WO I was a PRINCE(provided you DID YOUR WORK to HIS STANDARDS.I had to get up at 04:30 to catch a bus at )5:00 into Montreal from our home on Montreal Island's FAR Western Lakeshore.Once I hit Montreal I transferred to ANOTHER bus which headed out along Notre Dame St EAST to the far reaches of EAST Montreal Island at Longue Pointe where No25 CAOD was situated.Four PLUS hours in transit every day PLUS anything we had going at the Victoria Rifles on week nights and weekends.At CDN$3.14 per diem I wasn't getting rich.Being in uniform and posessing travel orders etc I am GLAD I wasn't paying bus fares I assure you.

We DID have No4MkI* receivers,Sten (MkII Mag Housings) Bren MkI and MkII receivers and Border City Industries M1919A4 Receivers ALL of which were UN-numbered spare parts.Same story with FRAMES(boxes stated BODY) for the No2MkI* Pistols. Now that I think about it I am sure that I still have a No25 CAOD box for a No4MkI* receiver in my stash of No4 parts.I'll try to dig it out and see if a friend can photograph the label for posterity's sake here.

All I did as a unit level armourer was keep our unit small arms in condition for periodic ordnance inspections ALL of which I passed with flying colours.I was also on the rifle team with Sgt Tommy Richardson as NCOIC and our mentor in all things pertaining to shooting.I miss him too as he died about two years ago.Thankfully not before I was able to buy all his barrelling fixtures and tooling.As a result I can rebarrel anything from a LE or LEC 1 to a C No4MkI* with all the correct wrenches and clamps etc.

So,as can be seen UNITS did have the equipment and experise AND the spare receivers to effect transfers of serviceable parts from one receiver to another at various points.Canada had HUGE stocks of spares for small arms like Thompson SMG's and M1 Rifles and Carbines at No25 CAOD when I was there too.The Air Force at Trenton had their equivalent of No 25 with tons of things like brand new Royal Typewriter M1918A2 BARs too.

I built for myself WITH permission from on high(the WOI i/c) a WINCHESTER M1 Garand and a M2 Carbine(NO FA Parts on board) after the WO I gave me the receivers(numbered to be sure) and a chit to get the parts from the tool crib.I still have a No25 CAOD box of M1 Rifle WINDAGE knobs that came back to Canada from Denmark in 1999.I can safely assume that Canada shipped all or most of it's M1 Rifle spares to Denmark under the NATO agreements.

I have also seen barrelling equipment for No4's as well as C1A1 rifles at places like CFB Chilliwack in the early 1980's so never say never is probably best.

Bedtime here,

Cheers,

John R.

The ZF mark.

Badger asked me to comment on the ZF mark on No4 rifles and I reported back in pretty-well general terms exactly what it meant to ALL British, Australian and New Zealand army equipment. It’s not difficult. Now, I cannot comment on Canada because I’ve never been there. I’m not here to tell you a load of unsubstantiated rubbish….., it’s all freely available for you all to see but what I do want, is for you to take it on board.

I would also ask you to read again the thread that deals with DP rifles because it’s pretty clear that some out there in Forum land know more about these than they’re letting on. Or alternatively, THINK they know more about these than they’re letting on……….

Up until now, I’ve been the polite Mr. Laidler, long, long time Armourer, with a modicum of experience under his belt from working in the MASSIVE Base workshops, to the smaller Infantry/Field workshops and the small, pretty-well self contained workshops. These range from…….. I won’t go on. I don’t want to rock any boats. Until now that is! I’m going to gingerly pick my way through the comments in this thread and tell you how it is. I hope the Editor lets it run because what I’m saying will lay a few myths to bed and maybe, in a few instances, prick a few where it hurts.

Are you ready………? Then I’ll begin

If your butt has a letter R over the word REME, either painted or stamped, it means REJECTED BY THE REME EXAMINER. It doesn’t mean repaired or repairable, it means, listen to me – REJECTED. It’s marked with the REME logo to show those back in the Base Ordnance Depots that it is a REME reject as opposed to an Ordnance reject. Only the highest level of REME in-inspector will mark this and the REME overrule the Ordnance in all things engineering. That’s why we are called engineers.

Now, the next thing………. The R-REME or ZF is painted or stamped onto the butt because there’s nowhere to paint it on the rifle body. Imagine a Bren with a jammed-up solid gas cylinder needing a FTR to replace it (and they do jam solid too…..). Would the examiner paint the ZF on the gas cylinder? OF course not! Look and think logically those forumers who think and write otherwise………… When we write off vehicles, we paint the word CAST in yellow paint on the bonnet, even if it’s a well worn out Bedford with a cracked and buckled chassis. Is that clear enough?

And another thing while were here. While some, including Tikirocker seem to doubt this and think it ought to be stamped on the rifle PART………, even when we DO, as in the case of DP kit, do they then doubt that too. You just can’t win. But furthermore, you just can’t have it both ways lads

I’ll give you an example. While in the US recently a dealer at one of the shows showed me an L1A1 rifle. A good, solid, British BSA that looked in GOOD overall condition. But there, winking at me from the butt were the dreaded, yellow painted letters, ZF….., which he assured me was Zimbabwe Forces. I told him that I didn’t think so because a) it was good, b) had been oiled in the past c) hadn’t been flogged to death and d) the barrel looked both straight and was fully painted in good old hard wearing sunkorite. So he passed it back to me and getting my in-inspectors hat on, gave it a quick once over. And sure enough, the rear body locking lug was worn out. The tell-tale mark was on the left side that a No2 (oversize) catch was fitted too! Body not just worn out, but TOTALLY worn out.

Now, the mystery of the ZF butts on ‘good’ rifles. I’ll ask you the obvious question with a statement first. Do YOU or your gunsmith have the gauging and examination kit that we have at even the lowest echelon unit Armourers shop? I doubt it but you never know… So the question is ‘just how do YOU know that the butt has been changed? The answer is that you don’t. Try to understand when I read constantly that the ZF butt has been changed! If it has, then remove the bloody ZF and be done with it. But don't let it stand there chuckling at you like a set of Christmas lights.

Jona is NEARLY right about us using our kit over again. When your rifle goes back to Ordnance as a ‘scrapper (or a ZF in Armourers language ……get it…., it’s that word again…?) it is disposed of by torch or gulllotine as a whole complete unit or sale as scrap to some dealer who wants to earn a fast buck. Some parts are cannibalized and returned to store but they go through a RSSD, attached to a REME workshops – again! That’s a ‘returned stores sub-depot’ for you non Armourers, where the parts are examined, tumbled etc etc etc parkerised and painted to new condition and re-packaged, returned to the shelf and re-issued in the fullness of time with the packaging marked PW (for Part Worn). That’s where we get our reconditioned engines and refurbished Bren gun butt slide assemblies, right down to foresight protector screws. But all ASSEMBLIES, and major parts, like Bren barrels, breech blocks and the like are re-packaged and it is made clear on the packaging that they are re-worked parts. They are sent out again like NEW. Can you imagine a reworked butt being sent through the system still bearing the ZF paint on it. Just think of the confusion…………… Come on!

At unit workshops, the Armourers will touch-paint the parts that need it while at a big Field workshops, they’ll just degrease and spray the weapons over the old paint and air dry (in my experience due to lack of paint oven but in Malaya, ‘air drying’ in the baking heat was pretty damned good!) while at Base workshops, they get the full in-inspection full repair and full out inspection. Obviously some weapons can be fully rebuilt to new condition at Base workshop and suddenly fail, to be condemned as ZF-BER because of an unforeseen fault, such as too high sear on a previously staked body or loose locking shoulder. You know what I mean……………….

I’m grateful to the Maestro Ed Horton for exhibiting the picture, not previously shown on this forum, of the repairs to the No5 rifle. Was this a joke Tiki or have you everso slightly lost the plot of what these forums and the hard working authors are trying to convey? I did have time before it was removed, to pass it on to some other Armourers to choke on their tea-cakes. Coke tins and swipe cards………… I’m doing my best to be polite but the words absolutely fail me. It’s fair to say that I have NEVER, ever seen…………. I won’t go on, but thanks Ed! And there again, as bold as brass, the infamous REME REJECTED and ZF signs proudly pop up like pop stars on the TV. Just take my word for it Tiki, there is NOT an answer for everything. LOOK AND LEARN.

But now, it’s time to eat a bit of humble pie to JohnR. I said on a previous thread that what we call ‘the master component’ was NEVER available as a spare part. This was obviously to prevent a budding Armourer making up a rifle out of spare parts. I even related the story of Craftsman ‘Tiny’ Davidson in Malaya who did somehow manage something similar in Malaya with a No2 pistol and being caught with it in his locker by Sgt Doug Baker (later killed with 8-RAR in SVN). Doug told Johnny Cotterill, our Armourer Sergeant later ‘Tiny does 28 days in the can (as we called Holdsworthy Jail) or I lose my pension. It’s simple. Tiny does 28 days'! I have learned that at the big combined RCEME/REME workshops in WERL in Germany, Canadian No4 and Bren bodies were available as replacement parts but only from Canadian Ordnance. This was cut short very quickly but quite clearly, Canadian Ordnance did supply master components and I should imagine, was awash with unlawful weaponry……….. But not in the UK, Australia or New Zealand.

Now, where were we. Ah, yes! If your rifle exhibits the glowing ZF or DP marks, then take a bit of advice. It’s there for a reason, I’ve covered all your bases but moreover, YOU don’t know why it’s there but at least the Forum has erred on the side of safety

Peter Laidler

John, Thanks for that. It explains a perfectly normal Long Branch No.4Mk.1* that I have here with a hand stamped serial number from a 77L, (1944 dated), rifle on the butt socket. The receiver is a Parkerized CAL/LB replacement marked C No.4Mk.1* and dated 1956. It's also one of my favorite rifles to shoot.

I also have a 92L Long Branch rifle that's had it's receiver replaced with one from a 1943 Maltby No.4Mk.1! The Maltby serial number has been linished and the Long Branch serial number stamped in it's place. It's a real oddball indeed but feels right as rain. The kind of thing that always stirs my curiosity. Brian

I had gone over my ZF marked No4. Thanks to your detailed account of the markings, and the likelihood the butt was not re-used with the marking left on it, I'm going to go all over it again with the jeweler's loup, all the gauges and the Canadian Manual as presented here for download.
I'm pretty confident it will be ok, mainly owing to the commercial proof marks on the barrel, but I will leave nothing to chance for the sake of safety, and do everything by the book. I'm still a novice on No4's, so it will be page by page.

Thankyou Brian also- After reading John R's posting I was hoping someone would have a rifle with a serial number (or something) that didn't fit the date to demonstrate what to look for. :beerchug:

Now listen for the sound of "ZF's" being quickly scrubbed/linished from buttstocks around the world...:rolleyes:

It is a shame that some people in our forums would question and insult a trained Armourer in the hopes of carving another notch in their pistol grip signifying that they had gunned down someone else.

Some people can’t get over the fact that they told everyone in our forums that the wondering zero problem never existed only to find out it did in fact exist and have to eat their words.

The real problem in our forums is the fact that anyone with a computer and two fingers can write anything they want to. And then depending on their status and position in a forum they frequently get away with using bubblegum and bailing wire methods to fix the Enfield rifle.

I tracked down all the Enfield books and manuals down I could find because the books and manuals don’t have oversized egos that constantly need feeding, and these manuals never ever lie about the facts.

Words fail me on how lucky we are to have Mr. Laidler in our forum so I just want you to know Mr. Laidler I would give you two thumbs up but the other hand is holding the camera. :D

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP3322-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Now listen for the sound of "ZF's" being quickly scrubbed/linished from buttstocks around the world...:rolleyes:

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Remember sand with the grain of the wood :rolleyes:
(if the wood smokes your pressing too hard)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP3001-1.jpg

You're a big help, Mr. Horton!:lol:


On the same subject, it would seem that the Indian Army painted "CON'D" on their No1 Mk III* buttstocks(attached to rifles) that were beyond repair, I've a pile at the house. Quite sad they are...

One of my favorite rifles is marked ZF with a big nasty splotch of yellow paint on it. Peter was here and that's when I learned about it. It kind of broke my heart but he told to not dare touch it as it's just another day in the history of the weapon so it's still here and marked accordingly. The problem is the receiver/body is worn out and the right hand locking lug drags over the sear. I remember posting his findings and my new education on the old British Guns forum and I'd guess everyone was scrambling to check RH locking lugs on their bolts to see if the problem existed with any of their rifles! The education is endless.

Peter, i brought a 1941 Lithgow minus its bolt a few months back, came to the conclusion it was a 'scrapped' rifle by these marks, the only other mark i could find was a thin red line painted across the butt socket LHS & this came off when i cleaned it.
Was i correct? dont really matter if not, barrels stuffed & i sold the woodwork.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmoore

You're a big help, Mr. Horton!:lol:

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I know I’m a big help, but I just keep wondering why so many of my postings are “ZF”ed :rolleyes:

No "umble" pie need be eaten.We are all together in our quest for knowledge I hope.Nuff said.See below Peter's quote for clarification.



"But now, it’s time to eat a bit of humble pie to JohnR. I said on a previous thread that what we call ‘the master component’ was NEVER available as a spare part. This was obviously to prevent a budding Armourer making up a rifle out of spare parts. I even related the story of Craftsman ‘Tiny’ Davidson in Malaya who did somehow manage something similar in Malaya with a No2 pistol and being caught with it in his locker by Sgt Doug Baker (later killed with 8-RAR in SVN). Doug told Johnny Cotterill, our Armourer Sergeant later ‘Tiny does 28 days in the can (as we called Holdsworthy Jail) or I lose my pension. It’s simple. Tiny does 28 days'! I have learned that at the big combined RCEME/REME workshops in WERL in Germany, Canadian No4 and Bren bodies were available as replacement parts but only from Canadian Ordnance. This was cut short very quickly but quite clearly, Canadian Ordnance did supply master components and I should imagine, was awash with unlawful weaponry……….. But not in the UK, Australia or New Zealand."



Peter Laidler[/QUOTE]

You are pretty much on the mark vis a vis Canadian military personnel being able to access "buckshee" small arms made up from either un-numbered spare parts OR parts that were written off as being"scrapped".I left Longue Pointe with 1)My PROJECT "do it properly or face execution" 1943 Dated No4MkI* with LONG buttstock and S/N JR-1,2) A 1946 dated C No7MkI* .22 S/N JR-2,3) a Winchester M1 Garand with a serial number I have long since forgotten.4) A M2 Carbine with NO full auto parts(all parts were brand new with the exception of the M2 stamped receiver which was the NICEST receiver the Boss could find in our stocks)5) A brand new and totally un-numbered No2MkI* Inglis Browning,and last but not least a M3"Grease Gun" Submachinegun that he had brought home from Korea and didn't want.Only that Grease Gun cost me a bottle.He ALSO drove me home to Beaconsfield and wound up staying for dinner with my folks with all the "swag" in the trunk of his car.We were SCRAPPING stuff on a daily basis and my being the bottom of the "food chain" in our shop;guess who got to fire up the torch and start cutting? The WOI's RULE was this"IF YOU WANT SOMETHING ASK ME".He KNEW that I was a gun nut in the making and so was he.Tommy Richardson from the Vics was my friend and mentor so I was a known quantity and a few regs got"bent".Not a big deal THEN but I shudder to think about now...ALL of the parts with the exception of the receivers,were "C" Class(no records kept in esssence)while the receivers were "A" Class and needed an authorized signature to be issued from the tool crib.I OBVIOUSLY didn't sign for the receivers either.Who was I? A 15 year old galley slave; to question my superiors ?

I think that MOST of us here are well past 40 and all will agree that the world was a MUCH BETTER PLACE circa 1957.Nobody in Canada at least got upset if you were seen walking down the Street(like Yonge St in Toronto at high noon)with a BRAND NEW 1953 Dated Lithgow NoIMkIII* slung over your shoulder with a breech cover on it and the bayonet reversed and taped to the nose cap and forend.I walked from 577 Yonge HERCULES SALES to Yonge and King and nobody blinked.Try THAT now and see what happens.....

As it is I ALSO was given a 1945 dated No4MkI* with a 1943 Serial number by our former Chief Provincial Firearms Officer and he told me that HE had assembled it from parts when he was in the Air Force.

I was later given a brand new Long Branch MkII Sten mag housing WITHOUT serial numbers and built it up and numbered it 200L0001 and registered it.
Toronto was AWASH(no joke) in NEVER NUMBERED INGLIS No2MkI* pistols of ALL flavours for $25 a pop when I was a sprat too.For some reason you could get ALL the 7.92 Inglis MkII Brens you ever wanted for about $50 but a .303" was damned near unobtainium.

I had a No4MkI*T converted to 7.62mm at Canadian Arsenals in 1966 AFTER a former friend TOTALLY ROTTED out the barrel by firing DA52 BERDAN primed"MATCH AMMO" and not cleaning it.Damn him anyway !!

Then again Long Branch would HAPPILY parkerize anything(like M1A1 Thompsons and M1918A2 BARs) you liked for a nominal sum IF you spoke to Art Sweeting and Col.Levins nicely.Hey,life was good;what can one say ?

When you think of some of what probably MOST of us have done way back in the dim dark past we are lucky that we aren't STILL in the DB.

Oneupmanship is thankfully something that is in VERY short supply herabouts and long may we all remain "Brothers in Arms".

Cheers,

John R.

Someone has asked on the PM what were the common causes of No1, 4 and 5body failures. One of the biggest was a worn sear stop that allowed the sear to rise too far into the body and foul the left (the lower or smaller) bolt locking lug. I've mentioned this before but you could line-punch the stop part of the body once but if it occurred again, that was a cause for it to be rejected. But on your private shooting rifle, would it really matter if you did it several/many times? I think not!

Another regular failure was a worn bolt guide in the body where the bolt fitted into the body 'like a sausage in the High Street' to use another technical phrase! There was a reject gauge for this but the acid test used by the In-Inspectors was to hold the rifle downwards, vertically and let the cocking piece rest on the sear......... then squeeze the first pull of the trigger (until it gets to the second pull). The bolt should not move up and down unduly. It's that ambiguous word again. What's unduly to one isn't particularly unduly to another so the reject gauge would come into play. Add to this the fact that a sloppy bolt will mean that you won't be able to get a good, crisp, consistent 2nd pull-off. That is an immediate failure on a No4T.

The not so obvious but Base repair reasons were stripped ejector and screw, spring, bolt locking threads but I have to say that I NEVER saw one. These would be bored out, a collar brazed in and re-tapped. But the other failure was the stripped screw front and rear trigger guard screws. I saw plenty of these and there was never a repair policy. That was an immediate ZF.

Failure to get CHS was a major fail point but we had a special calibrated bolt called 'BOLT, Inspectors' plus a calibrated No2 bolthead at Base workshops (kept in an oil box to prevent atmospheric damage). This was because we could only fit a No2 bolthead at Base workshops as a No3 meant that there was insufficient life left in the rifle. So, if there was any doubt, then we'd use the inspectors bolt and No2 gauge. We also had an metallurgy/test section at the big theatre workshops and at 40 Base, we had a old Izod impact tester to test the hardness of the locking shoulders on any that were going out on a No2 bolthead. Size 0 and 1 weren't subject to this test. Just a thought, but do you have these calibrated gauges to check your DP and ZF rifles against?

Obviously there were the damaged and distorted bodies. Paratroopers on P Company would/could damage them during arduous training but these rifles were all DP anyway

Mk1/1 and 1/3 bodies with torn boltway recesses were easily repaired and a common occurrence.

I suppose there were a few more uncommon causes that other Armourers had come across.

I don't have either the "Bolt, Inspectors" or any way of testing surface hardness if locking lugs on my ZF No4. It has a matching bolt with No1 bolthead fitted and headspaces ok. Although it may not have been subjected to the above tests because of that, I had intended doing a close inspection of the lugs with a good magnifying glass and will check surface contact with marking blue.

I said damaged right hand locking lug in my previous post and I stand corrected as it's the LH one as Peter says.

I should have mentioned that we used a 'BOLT, Gauge, Inspectors' and the associated bolt head simply to confirm thhat it was the body that was knacke.....er..., worn out as opposed to our tray of bolts. We'd occasionally be caught out, but inevitably the body was worn-out or ZF'd as we'd say in conversation

The real drama that I see with using a "ZF'ed" rifle, is that the civilian user will never know the reason for the Reject. Could be stripped threads on the rear action screw (no safety issue there!), or the body could be completely beyond any hope of safely firing again.

Its not just Enfields either. The annual detail strip of my "mule" M1a rifle shows plenty of wear. As many rounds that have been through it, its no surprise, just something to recognize- You can wear this stuff flat out! And even if YOU didn't, well...

I agree entirely JM. To use the front trigger guard screw as a good example, then purely from the engineering worlds point of view, then if this thread was properly restored with a correctly fitted helicoil, then I'd say that's good enough for me.

At Uni; during our practical lessons we'd load helicoils up to some tremendous forces for discussions and the like and as a result I'm a regular user now.

But I don't think I'd feel the same about the barrel thread!

As a side note, the REME weapons shop in Halifax still has mounted to one of the steel roof support pillars, a No 4 re-barreling tool.

NS

"...“ZF”ed..." New, polite term for 'fornicated'? As in, "Your rifle is ZF'd." Snicker.
"...knacke..." Knackered as in tired? Some of us do speak, well understand, English, English. Some of us understand American slang and Newfoundlander(very close to Irish English, only spoken faster. Gets easier to understand with every beer.) too. snicker. Thanks for all the good info.

This is a great snippet story about the Long Branch No4Mk1. Is there anyway this order might be found in print? I would assume that the numbers of LB Mk1's in existent today is much less, than, then the 10,000-14,000 thousand produced. I have not seen or heard of a renumbered Mk1* with a 0L or 1L serial as of yet, but that proves nothing. This subject deserves a thread of it's own. I have two Mk1's, one 0L and a 1L. :dancingbanana:
and share your "grail" gratification. :thup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John R.

Hello Ed:

This was related to me by a now deceased Canadian Army RCEME Armourer late of Truro Nova Scotia.Elliot Campbell was his name and he was a truly lovely man as well as a well of information.

In brief Elliot joined the Canadian Army and was a RCEME Armourer BEFORE WWII was declared in 1939.

Most of us CANADIAN Enfield "Nuts" have two"holy grails" as it were.The First being an unfiddled with Long Branch No4MkI(NO STAR) and the other being a Long Branch No4MkI*T.I am lucky enought to have both.

It seems that in early 1945 a"Change Order" was issued down the Canadian Army's chain of command that mandated the CONVERSION of ALL UNIT HELD No4MkI rifles to No4MkI* status.According to Elliot unit level armourers HAD the necessary fixtures to effect the change too.You were to DISASSEMBLE any No4mkI rifles down into their component parts and then TRANSFER all the parts(obviously NOT the bolt catch etc) to a brand new and un-numbered No4MkI* receiver and then RENUMBER the new receiver to the OL or 1L number and after it passed all inspections return the rifle to unit stocks of SERVICEABLE Rifles.The now stripped No4MkI receivers were to be either destroyed or returned to Ordnance for disposition.

No25 CAOD was Canada's CENTRAL Ordnance Depot at the time I was posted there to "acquire" the necessary skills" to be our Unit Armourer as a 15 year old Reservist(MILITIA) in the Victoria Rifles of Canada.I came in on a waiver being UNDER the age of 17 the normal age for attestation with parental consent.By age 17 I was an Officer Cadet in McGill University's COTC.I REALLY ENJOYED my summer at No 25 and learned a lot the 'hard way'.we were ALL volunteers and the WO I was a PRINCE(provided you DID YOUR WORK to HIS STANDARDS.I had to get up at 04:30 to catch a bus at )5:00 into Montreal from our home on Montreal Island's FAR Western Lakeshore.Once I hit Montreal I transferred to ANOTHER bus which headed out along Notre Dame St EAST to the far reaches of EAST Montreal Island at Longue Pointe where No25 CAOD was situated.Four PLUS hours in transit every day PLUS anything we had going at the Victoria Rifles on week nights and weekends.At CDN$3.14 per diem I wasn't getting rich.Being in uniform and posessing travel orders etc I am GLAD I wasn't paying bus fares I assure you.

We DID have No4MkI* receivers,Sten (MkII Mag Housings) Bren MkI and MkII receivers and Border City Industries M1919A4 Receivers ALL of which were UN-numbered spare parts.Same story with FRAMES(boxes stated BODY) for the No2MkI* Pistols. Now that I think about it I am sure that I still have a No25 CAOD box for a No4MkI* receiver in my stash of No4 parts.I'll try to dig it out and see if a friend can photograph the label for posterity's sake here.

All I did as a unit level armourer was keep our unit small arms in condition for periodic ordnance inspections ALL of which I passed with flying colours.I was also on the rifle team with Sgt Tommy Richardson as NCOIC and our mentor in all things pertaining to shooting.I miss him too as he died about two years ago.Thankfully not before I was able to buy all his barrelling fixtures and tooling.As a result I can rebarrel anything from a LE or LEC 1 to a C No4MkI* with all the correct wrenches and clamps etc.

So,as can be seen UNITS did have the equipment and experise AND the spare receivers to effect transfers of serviceable parts from one receiver to another at various points.Canada had HUGE stocks of spares for small arms like Thompson SMG's and M1 Rifles and Carbines at No25 CAOD when I was there too.The Air Force at Trenton had their equivalent of No 25 with tons of things like brand new Royal Typewriter M1918A2 BARs too.

I built for myself WITH permission from on high(the WOI i/c) a WINCHESTER M1 Garand and a M2 Carbine(NO FA Parts on board) after the WO I gave me the receivers(numbered to be sure) and a chit to get the parts from the tool crib.I still have a No25 CAOD box of M1 Rifle WINDAGE knobs that came back to Canada from Denmark in 1999.I can safely assume that Canada shipped all or most of it's M1 Rifle spares to Denmark under the NATO agreements.

I have also seen barrelling equipment for No4's as well as C1A1 rifles at places like CFB Chilliwack in the early 1980's so never say never is probably best.

Bedtime here,

Cheers,

John R.

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I have begun the inspection process as best as I am able in the hope to find something to indicate why my rifle is marked ZF. I have decided at this point, from the information in this thread and the posting from Peter on DP rifles that I will not be firing this one anyway, as the probability of it being ok is getting less as I get further into it. Looking at the fact the foreend is numbered to the rifle, and the butt is a good colour and grain match to the foreend, I must assume it is original to the rifle. I managed to track down the previous owner, he had neither altered nor fired it while in his possession. He said it had come from a re-enactor who used it as a rifle scabbard filler, and unlikely he had fired it either.

In service life, everything except the receiver are replaceable parts. The "ZF" must be related to the receiver. Excessive headspace, and therefore worn locking lugs are not the problem. It headspaces as good with it's #1 bolthead. In the next day or two I will examine it very closely under a magnifying glass and good light. Until then, here's a couple of unusual things I found (maybe someone can help me out with the markings?)

There has been a wooden block inset into the foreend under the barrel reinforce. Maybe Peter can confirm it as the type of thing that might be done by an armourer to get the bedding right- maybe it's common- (this is my first No4).
The R side of the receiver is marked C28 under the wood line. There is another mark on the butt socket, L side under the serial. It looks like C (or G) and 30 (could be wrong there too- will double check tomorrow.
Pics below.

Any and all comments welcome.

Peter,

Just to dig a bit further:

Was there any sort of universal policy to preserve salvageable rifle parts when ZF-ing a rifle, or was it normal for the whole thing to be chucked away?

E.g. stamping "ZF" on a butt is presumably going to lead to that butt being scrapped as well as the receiver - whereas stamping "ZF" on the actual receiver would ensure the receiver was scrapped, but would not necessarily condemn the other component parts.


Without intending to throw fuel on the barby, I've seen a couple of rifles like Son's - "ZF" on the butt, but absolutely nothing to indicate any sort of damage. One was clearly "FTR-mint-in-cosmoline" condition, evidently surplussed out from some country's holdings. I did wonder whether there is another type of "ZF" (property mark?) floating around out there - maybe a cousin of the mysterious "FR".....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thunderbox

Peter,

Just to dig a bit further:

Was there any sort of universal policy to preserve salvageable rifle parts when ZF-ing a rifle, or was it normal for the whole thing to be chucked away?

E.g. stamping "ZF" on a butt is presumably going to lead to that butt being scrapped as well as the receiver - whereas stamping "ZF" on the actual receiver would ensure the receiver was scrapped, but would not necessarily condemn the other component parts.


Without intending to throw fuel on the barby, I've seen a couple of rifles like Son's - "ZF" on the butt, but absolutely nothing to indicate any sort of damage. One was clearly "FTR-mint-in-cosmoline" condition, evidently surplussed out from some country's holdings. I did wonder whether there is another type of "ZF" (property mark?) floating around out there - maybe a cousin of the mysterious "FR".....

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I'll chip in here to start with an bit from Peter's earlier posting where he says that harvested parts go through a process before being re-issued. I get the drift from his post that a butt would not get through with the ZF still on it- just think, the first person to look at the rifle would have to send it for scrap...

Here's the entire bit concerned...

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Now, the mystery of the ZF butts on ‘good’ rifles. I’ll ask you the obvious question with a statement first. Do YOU or your gunsmith have the gauging and examination kit that we have at even the lowest echelon unit Armourers shop? I doubt it but you never know… So the question is ‘just how do YOU know that the butt has been changed? The answer is that you don’t. Try to understand when I read constantly that the ZF butt has been changed! If it has, then remove the bloody ZF and be done with it. But don't let it stand there chuckling at you like a set of Christmas lights.

Jona is NEARLY right about us using our kit over again. When your rifle goes back to Ordnance as a ‘scrapper (or a ZF in Armourers language ……get it…., it’s that word again…?) it is disposed of by torch or gulllotine as a whole complete unit or sale as scrap to some dealer who wants to earn a fast buck. Some parts are cannibalized and returned to store but they go through a RSSD, attached to a REME workshops – again! That’s a ‘returned stores sub-depot’ for you non Armourers, where the parts are examined, tumbled etc etc etc parkerised and painted to new condition and re-packaged, returned to the shelf and re-issued in the fullness of time with the packaging marked PW (for Part Worn). That’s where we get our reconditioned engines and refurbished Bren gun butt slide assemblies, right down to foresight protector screws. But all ASSEMBLIES, and major parts, like Bren barrels, breech blocks and the like are re-packaged and it is made clear on the packaging that they are re-worked parts. They are sent out again like NEW. Can you imagine a reworked butt being sent through the system still bearing the ZF paint on it. Just think of the confusion…………… Come on!

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Mine fits your description. Immaculate, all matching with grease under the wood! Unless something was done in Canada which Peter is unaware of, but then, mine is painted, not blued- a trait I understand indicates some re-work in Gt Britain, but no markings evident.

Still, in the absence of irrefutable conclusive evidence to the contrary, mine is a wallhanger.

I can only tell you what the ZF means.......... and it's NOT Zimbabwe Forces! In our lingo, it indicaes that the In-Inspector at a Base Workshop has identified something wrong with the body (because everything else can be repaired at Field workshop level) that can only be repaired at factory lever or a Base Workshop with factory level repair facilities. I then mentioned the most common causes of a body being deemed ZF.

If your rifle passes all these tests, then all is well.

The reinforce patch on Sons rifle is a good example of a Field Workshop repair and this is featured inthe EMER's but the other marks are just seemingly production markings with no significance outside the factory

As I said, we did not ever change the 'master component' and in any case, the master component didn't feature in the Ordnance system. The body is listed in the parts list together with a part number but the part number was always a 'blocked' number. In any case, the parts list was a lost of parts and not a list of available parts.

My big fear is DP rifles, only because I know from experience about how they are selected and why the vast majority of them are set aside and earmarked as suitable for DP.

Look at it this way. On the occasions when I've been confronted with a ZF marked rifle, I have immediately gone straight to the reason. If you're happy, then all is well..................... But get rid of the marking and be done with it

Son

Moderator Edit: Edited to remove racial jokes.
There is a one in a trillion chance that the “ZF” on your Enfield butt stock is a Zimbabwe rack number and your Enfield is perfectly safe to shoot.

Also did you double check to make sure that the fore stock was not bedded using the beer can shimming method which would make the Enfield totally “ZF”ed. :D

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP3097-1.jpg

I enjoy your humour Ed........... I show the other Armourers but make sure I blame you!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I enjoy your humour Ed........... I show the other Armourers but make sure I blame you!

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Mr. Laidler

I was told once by an Australian that beer can shims in the draws area were acceptable in Australian because beer cans are a very large natural resource in Oz.

I myself being a stickler for proper detail ordered a large supply of British shimming material for my Enfield’s. :D 'Guinness is good for you' ;)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

Ok, guys... I've spent some more time going over the No4 and have spotted another clue (possibly) to the originality of the butt. The pic in my last post showed a stamping on the left side of the receiver below the wood line. The same stamping (although with a different stamp set) is on the top of the butt's spigot.

Does any one know what "C 28" means in this case....? Has anyone seen this marking, or even another marking in the same location on a No4?

John R, could it be a mark from the system within Canada? :sos:

Please ! A crash course at No25CAOD as a 15 year old underage Rfn recruit plus far too many years of collecting mostly Canadian Lee-Enfields HARDLY makes me an expert.Later in life I passed a Class 1 Armourer's exam but it wasn't in the Canadian Army.I am blessed/cursed with almost total recall and am a trained observer.I LISTEN to people like the late Elliot Campbell and keep what they related in my memory banks and also make notes.
The MOST experienced Canadian Armourer I know of who is still on this side of the daisies is Hank Holm in Calgary Alberta.Hank is a retired Reg Force WO 1 and suffers from incipient "packratism".He has no end of bumf related to Canadian Small Arms filed away.When I need info I call him and he either faxes or mails copies of the relevant publication or just tells me from memory.

Hank is the President Emeritus of the Alberta Arms and Cartridge Collectors Assn(AACCA) and ran the Calgary Easter Show until two years ago when Jack Wallace took over.

I don't know just how au fait Hank is with these infernal boxes but Barb his wife is VERY much clued in with them.This being the case I am going to get in touch with Hank and ask him to log on here so we can get the REAL Canadian perspective regarding 30 years of hands on "Gun Plumbing".

My command experience is more concerned with FN-FAL's,MAG-58 GPMG's and arcane items like Hotchkiss-Brandt Mortars and a few immaculate 25 Pdrs and the care and feeding of same.7.62x51mm NATO Brens (converted in South Africa by Lyttleton Engineering/ARMSKOR) and 90mm Guns on Eland Armoured Cars are also quite familiar.I have owned Brens,M1919A4's and AN/HB M2 .50 Cals and when you have your own to play with as well as a 3/4 mile long sand and gravel pit in the middle of nowhere to have" WWII with the original cast" if you like you also get to be fairly adept at keeping them all going.I ALSO had items like 3 different models of the MG-34,both variants of the MG-42,a M60(lousy when compared to a MAG-58) and a flock of SMG's and so called "Assault Rifles".Most of this was PRIOR to my going to work overseas in 1970 when life was MUCH simpler and the Police were our friends and not what they have evolved into ESPECIALLY the anti gun dipsticks you now see in England.All because of this never ending lust for POWER that they all have.
This crap where they figure that they are here to CONTROL the populace and are a race apart is what I mean.In Canada their forever wanting MORE power and trying to MAKE the laws instead of enforcing them is the road to perdition.At least in MY mind it is.

I have been actively COLLECTING Long Branch Lee-Enfields and anything Candian since I was 15 and did a LOT of personal research on the subject along the way.THAT is where I draw most of my anecdotal evidence from.

I'll have a crack at Hank tomorrow and see if we can't get him on board here.

Cheers,

JR