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Dear Enfield experts,
I am neither buying nor selling this rifle. But I would like an opinion as to whether it is/could be genuine. As a non-expert, I can only observe that it does not appear to match what I can find in the "Lee Enfield Story".
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=2539987
Patrick
It looks like a 100% standard and genuine L39A1 military target rifle.
The magazine might possibly be a modern replica, but thats judging by the colour in a small photograph.
These were mostly held/used by RAF shooting clubs. The clubs later sold them off, so its quite possible that rifle has originated from Gutersloh or Bruggen air force bases.
P.s. the L39 illustrated in the "Lee Enfield Story" (depending which edition you have seen) is fitted with a No8 butt and a .303 magazine. The rifles were issued without sights and magazines. Clubs normally fitted standard Parker Hale or AJ parker target sights. Since the rifle was a target rifle, often a .303 mag was used as a single-loading platform. However, many/most L39s were later fitted with 7.62mm magazines.
In this photo the bottom rifle is "as issued" from stores. The top rifle has sights, 7.62mm mag and a No8 butt fitted.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...45927745-1.jpg
More L39s in mostly standard confirguration:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...45927748-1.jpg
Thunderbox, it's worth pointing out to the forum members that the rifle at the bottom of the picture is exactly how they came from Donnington to the unit that it was issued to.
I dare say that your example may be the only one in existance in a "virgin" state!
Thanks a lot for the information. I was misled into thinking that the correct version was only as shown in the book!
Patrick
P.S. How do they shoot?
Mine is extremely hard on the close. It's like it's got a bolt head fitted that is 3 sizes to long. I've not checked it yet, as there are others to shoot.....
(Brian, I need some guages, too!)
Now, the No.4 Conv. shoots sweet, and the adjustable diopter is just the ticket.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
They shoot very well, I did hear that one was used to win the Queens final at Bisley one year but I have yet to collabarate that story.
The HS gauges for the L39/L42 are much tighter than a standard 7.62 set. They are closer to what we U.S. Armorers would call "Match" specification here. I have one original set of British military gauges for them so bring your rifles when you visit and I'll be glad to check them for you. They are wonderful shooting rifles!
I know of two L39s that were released into the wild in Niedersachsen. My regiment sold one to Waffen Majerke in Bergen and my mate bought the other one for DM500. At the time I didn't have 500 marks, so I bought the two new No4 Mk1/2s that were also sold off for the princely sum of DM 300 for the both of them.
I was most cheesed off about a year later when I found out that my mate had traded the rifle in with Frankonia Jagd in Hannover against a new Kahles scope:thdown: They allowed him 500 marks on it towards the cost of the scope. At that time I could have afforded it but didn't know he was wanting to sell it.:(
I so need an L39.
LimpetmineQuote:
Originally Posted by limpetmine
Normally the unfired cartridge case is made approximately .002 (two thousandths) shorter than the minimum headspace setting for a given rifle. The L39/L42 minimum headspace is .002 tighter or shorter than SAAMI or American military 7.62 NATO.
You can use a RCBS Precision Mic to measure your cartridge case before and after firing to check “cartridge headspace” or how long your case is.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MGP51301-1.jpg
Below is minimum or “zero” headspace 1.630 for the .308 and American 7.62 NATO.
(Minimum headspace for the L39/L42 is 1.628)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MGP51571-1.jpg
Below a European surplus 7.62 NATO loaded cartridge that is only ½ thousandths shorter than SAAMI and U.S. military standards AND 1 ½ thousandths longer than L39/L42 minimum headspace.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP5256-1.jpg
Below a commercially loaded Winchester .308 cartridge and it is .002 shorter than minimum SAAMI and U.S. Military headspace of 1.630
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP5254-1.jpg
NOTE: Reloading manuals warn you to NEVER shoot reloaded cases that were used for reduced loads again for full power hunting loads, example using reduced pistol or shotgun powder charges for low velocity plinking loads.
The reason for this is because the cartridge case gets shorter each time it is fired because the force of the firing pin hitting the primer actually makes the case shorter. (you will end up with excessive headspace or head gap clearance and have case head separations)
Now with the RCBS Precision Mic an unfired case and a fired spent primer and by dry firing this empty case and then remeasuring the case you can find out what headspace measurement your bolt closes normally without the rear of the case touching the boltface.
Your hard chambering ammunition may not meet British 7.62 ammunition standards and is causing the hard closing of your bolt.
The only thing standard with 7.62 NATO ammunition and the countries that manufacture this ammunition are the numbers “7.62”.
Signed
The excessive compulsive headspace fanatic. :rolleyes:
Ed, the very last paragraph above is SO true! 7.62mm NATO is a wierd and wonderful thing. We had the unfortunate experience of being lumbered with a whole load of 7.62mm NATO ammo from Nigeria............ well, I say Nigeria because the ends of the boxes were painted in a green/white/green flash, as in the Nigeria flag but I suppose it could have been anywhere really, but they got the blame. You know, Nigeria being a prominent NATO member and all that! Some of this stuff was full of dynamite that sent the Bren cases crashing into the gravel of the firing point with such force that the gravel was flying up/back at the same velocity as the bullet while other stuff was full of talcum powder that wouldn't pull you off the nest.
It was all we had so we used it and the Ammo Tech boys told us afterwards that we were imagining it because it was all NATO standard. Bless 'em.............. I pulled this dozy Sergeant aside and asked him how long his ammo tech's course had been then told him how long I'd done at Uni. Then he explained it away because I didn't have my finger on the pulse with regards the weapons....., Bren guns! You know what it's like when you really want to give someone a good slapping................?
Ah, yes....., 7.62mm NATO
Each country that belongs to NATO and also manufactures their own 7.62 NATO rifles also designs their own chamber dimensions, headspace dimensions and ammunition dimensions.
The British L39/L42 has tighter head space settings than the L1A1
L39/L42 1.628 GO 1.635 NO-GO
L1A1 1.6352 GO 1.643 NO-GO
U.S. M14 1.6355GO, 1.6455 FIELD REJECT
SAAMI 1.630 GO, 1.634 NO GO, 1.638 FIELD REJECT
Then we have NATO and SAAMI cartridge headspace standards (case headspace length)
7.62x51mm NATO minimum cartridge headspace 1.630
7.62x51mm NATO maximum cartridge headspace 1.633
7.62x51mm NATO average cartridge headspace 1.6315
.308 Winchester minimum cartridge headspace 1.627
.308 Winchester maximum cartridge headspace 1.633
.308 Winchester average cartridge headspace 1.630
Limpetmine’s L39/L42 problem could just be trying to chamber NATO ammunition that has a cartridge headspace length of 1.633 in a chamber that is 1.628 long. (the case is .005 longer than his chamber)
Limpetmine, you might have to call Hunts Tomatoes and find out how they get those eight big tomatoes in that little bitty can. :D
Could you write all that down on a big long hardwood stick, about 2" in diameter and next time I see the ammo tech, I'll suggest that he, er, sticks it......, er......, somewhere useful..............