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I'm awaiting arrival of a Ross 1905 Mark II, and I intend to shoot it.
Given the scarcity of milsurp .303 (though I keep on looking), I'd like to hear what ammunition has worked best for other Ross shooters. Commercial? Reloads only? Jacketed or cast?
I've got some Win Super X for my other .303s and I do intend to reload for this rifle if at all possible.
Thanks, and happy new year.
You've just told us "Ross Mk II" and no more.....Which Ross Mk II?
If it's an original no-star,one-star or with a Mk III sight: don't shoot it!
If it's either a Military or Commercial Mk II** with a great bore: handloads.
If it's either a Mk II 3*, 4* or 5*, it's most likely almost smoothbore- use up your surplus military stuff-
I have shot my Mk II* several times with surplus ammo (1940's Canadian stuff) and apart from blowing the shoulders of the casings out due to the large chamber I have had no problems.
I had a Ross some twenty years ago and without concerning myself over which make or mark it was I shot reloads without incident. I kept them reasonable for reduced recoil and didn't even suffer separated cases like the other 303 service rifles.
Despite my Mk.II (3* I think) having a very worn overall appearance, the bore appears to be very good and there are no LC markings on the barrel.
I have been a little reluctant to shoot it having read about the 30cal bore but it must have been designed to shoot 303 and headspaces OK so I have determined to have a go with my standard loads someday.
I have been the happy owner of a MkII 5* for over thirty years and have fired thousands of rounds of everything from military surplus to handloads and commercial bought. The bore still slugs out to .3105" and I get substantially better case life than I get with my SMLE, possiby due to the front locking lugs on the Ross. As with any 100+ year old rifle it is prudent to check its soundness before shooting of course. Rowdy, nice history on your stock.
Tom in beautiful Washington State
Thanks for all the responses. I don't have the rifle yet, but based on s/n (BU suffix) and physical characteristics it is a 5*, although the butt stock appears devoid of any stars at all. A closer look when it arrives might solve (or deepen) the mystery.
The previous owner did run some rounds through it before I bought it and I hope to get the measurements from his fired brass to help me assess the size of the chamber. The rifle bears no enlarged chamber markings, for what that's worth.
Is the concern about the no star, one-star or the Mk III sight versions based on rarity and value or on the fact that later variations were stronger/safer (or both)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossguy
I have several Ross rifles. The .280 shoots great with reloads and can be downloaded a bit. My question is about the .303 military version, where I have shot reloads and factory Greek. But given the scarcity of milsurp ammo, I want to reload. My rifle has a large chamber. The cases come out with necks 10 thou or so too large to even enter a resizing die. How have people dealt with this problem? Have you gotten RCBS to make special dies? Does it take two resizing passes to get the necks down to .311? Other solutions or suggestions.Quote:
Originally Posted by RangeRover
Thanks, Jay in CA
"...fired brass to help me assess the size of the chamber...."
Better than that purchase some Cerrosafe from Brownells or others and make and mike a chamber cast. Easy to do and then you will know for sure.
I am shooting Rosses and Lee-Enfields and handloading for both.
My test load for the SMLE is Defence Industries brass, whatever LR primer I have in stock (Winchester or CCI), a Sierra 180 hunting bullet (flat-based, in deference to the SMLE's Enfield rifling, of course) and about 37 grains of IMR-4895 powder. I find that, after testing, most SMLEs will want something between this and 38 grains of the same powder. Bullets are seated to the OAL of a Mark VII Ball round, which is what I use to adjust my seater. This crowds the rifling just a bit because of the differing ogive of the Sierra bullet, but the rifles seem to like it.
Chronographed MV with this loading is right on 2250 with the SMLE, 2335 with a full-military Ross in good shape. Those 5 extra inches DO help: the old-timers who said a Ross 'shot harder' than the SMLE were right.
With this load, off the sandbags, I can get 1 inch with a completely-original NRF 1918 SMLE, half an inch with a 1918 Lithgow and anything from overlapping holes to 5/16" with the Ross.
These all are called 2-round groups starting with a cold barrel, shots spaced by about 1 minute. A sighting-shot may be fired, but at LEAST a 5-minute wait before shooting your group. This should set you up for hunting or sniping: neither man nor beast is going to hang around long after the first one, so no point in warming your bore. This will tell you what the rifle is CAPABLE of doing; in a field situation, the remainder is up to you.
The British found through extensive experimentation that the LE always shot its best with a .312" bullet and this has shown, generally, to be true also of the Ross.
These are NOT heavy loads, nor are they high-pressure. Recoil is moderate, perceptibly less than Ball ammo.
As to the swelled cases from the really early Ross, I have its spiritual twin, built in 1906. For this one, I neck-size only, using a .308 Winchester die, chamfer the inside of the case-mouth to ease the seating of the new bullet. You could find that the cases will resize easier if you chamfer the OUTSIDES of the mouths.
As to brass life, I have no idea with the Ross. I have a box here of 1942 DI brass which has been through my HMS Canada rifle 15 times to date; it still does not require trimming and there are NO signs of separation. It just keeps going.... and going..... and going...... you know the rest!
I do hope this is of some help.
Hesketh-Prichard, letter to his wife, March 16th, 1917:
"Today with a Ross rifle I did rather a feat of touching three bullets at 100 yards. It is luck of course, as no one can hold as close."
I suspect luck had very little to do with it.
Thank you, Surpmil, for that.
I am tired enough of being called a liar when I talk about the performance of a good Ross Rifle that I keep a box loaded. Anyone calls me a liar, I just invite them to the range. It is surprising how many back off when confronted with the possibility that they could be wrong... and the dangerous old POS rifle just MIGHT shoot better with century-old iron sights than their spiffy new Remchester does with its 24x scope.
One thing. Army doctrine called for aiming with the whole width of the blade of the front sight. That's fine and well for big targets. But the CORNER of the front-sight blade is a lot smaller.... and the Ross has an adjustable rear sight. So what you can do is put the rear-sight aperture OUT about 2 minutes and aim with the upper-right-hand corner of the front-sight blade. This will REALLY tighten things up, especially if your eyes are getting a bit old (as mine).
BTW, same technique works on a Garand, which has pretty decent sights for a battle rifle.
For tightest groups possible, try this technique while aiming at the bottom-left-hand corner of a 4-inch BLACK aiming-square at 100, or a 6- to 8-inch square at 200. Nice, big, easy to see target... nice, big, easy to see sight blade.... teeny, tiny, itty-bitty little groups if the rifle, ammo and shooter all are working together properly.
Carry along a Bic lighter; smoked sights shoot best.
Give it a try. Seriously. Works.
Reading your posts Smellie, here and elsewhere is a real pleasure and unfailingly informative. You may think you have no more knowledge than many of your contemporaries, but many of them are gone I suspect, and most others don't use computers/the Internet, or can't be bothered to write this stuff down.
Pray continue, and in as much detail as you can! Have you considered putting your various posts together and fleshing them out in the form of an 'e-book' on shooting the Ross and Enfield, for example?
One would suppose that it would simply be good practice to bring any "new to you" firearms that old to a gunsmith for a once-over.
That depends on a lot of factors, one being the relative states of knowledge of the gunsmith and yourself.
I am not a gunsmith myself and would never claim to be such. But there are a couple who come to me to identify strange stuff for them, also tell them the various idiosyncrasies of what they are working with.
There are a lot of gunsmiths out there who "know all about" those dangerous old Rosses and even a few who will volunteer to DEWAT it or destroy it for you. My CAT knew more about Ross Rifles than some of those guys. (But then, he WAS a very smart cat!)
There are people on this forum who are far more qualified in certain areas than 90% of gunsmiths. I think it makes sense to have a thing checked out by someone QUALIFIED to check it out.
Let's look at a 'f'rinstance' in this regard. Can you show me a gunsmith in Canada OR the USA who is 'QUALIFIED' to inspect and check out an Armaguerra Model 39? (This was the STANDARD semi-auto rifle of the Italian Army in World War Two.) I have never met one. How about qualified to check out a Ross? A FEW are qualified but, when it comes to Rosses, I find myself checking them for the GUNSMITHS more often than not.
Learn basic firearms technology and design, educate yourself on whatever your own particular bee-in-the-bonnet might be and then, when you feel yourself competent, likely you're halfway there. But the field is so huge that no-one can know it all. So you come to forums such as this one... and find the knowledge that you need.
There are some VERY good people here.... and a few are better than ANY gunsmith.
"Seek and ye shall find; ask and thou shalt receive."
So far I've only had one opportunity to shoot my Ross Mk. III, but I remember three things about it. It was FUN, it was FAST, and it was ACCURATE!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Surpmil
If I could find a steady source of cheap, reliable .303 that rifle would be almost a constant companion at the range....
You might try a set of the Lee Collet Dies. These work quite well in a Ross, and even the SMLE if you use the same brass that was originally fired in that rifle. Mix it up, and you have trouble. These Collet Dies neck size only by squeezing the neck of the case inward to contact a mandrel in the center of the die. This resizing die, plus the "dead length" seating die results in some very accurate ammunition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay in CA
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Thanks for that one, Buffdog. I have been thinking along similar lines, but you know how incredibly cheap I am.
What I have been doing is chamfering the OUTSIDES of case-mouths which are expanded too big; gives them a better shape so they can "ride" the shoulder cavity of the sizing die into the neck-sizing portion. Cheap.
But that's me, all over.
Have fun!
I can honestly say that the Mk.II and Mk.III Ross rifles I've fired over the years are some of the most accurate military service rifles I've ever fired. I still have a few stashed away but I've bought and sold many over the years and they never gave me a problem using quality ammo and common sense of course!
enbloc8, check out Post 10, this thread.
If you are in the USA, you can order your supplies from Graf's for about half of what we pay for them up here in The Great White North.
Handloading is the only way you will EVER find ammunition which is consistent ENOUGH for a Ross Rifle! Serious.