M!-Garand/ New Barrel & Can't Hit Anything!

Hi Guys,

I’m new to this site and forum so please bear with me.
I recently inherited a WW-II era M1-Garand made by Springfield from my father. He purchased it back in the 1980’s – but never shot it. I took it to the local OUTDOOR range and I was doing Ok with it –but the groupings were not consistent. I then took it to one of our local gunsmith’s here in Raleigh for it to be gone over for safety, etc. The gunsmith said that it was in excellent condition and had to only replace 1 small spring. However, he told me that the crowning on the muzzle was bad and that was most likely the reason why I had the grouping problem. He did not recommend to have it re-crowned but to purchase a new barrel. I went online and ordered a decent $250.00 new replacement barrel. I took it back to the gunsmith and he put the barrel on, tested fired it and said everything was great. Famous last words.

It was almost a year after I had the barrel put on that I finally found the opportunity to shoot it. So this past week I took it to an INDOOR range. I shot from the bench rest position using a shooting rest. I was extremely disappointed and p.o.’d. I couldn’t hit a darn thing – either at 50 or 100 yards. I wasted 96 rounds. With about 3 clips remaining I was finally on the paper at 50 yards but really low and to the left. I had adjusted the elevation adjustment to where it was about center. (However, this adjustment was almost to the max.) The windage was the big problem. I had the rear adjustment all the way to the left and I was still hitting about the same on the far left border of the target – at 50 yards. At 100 yards there were no hits on the target. I used both surplus ammo that I purchased through the CMP and my own reloads (6 clips each.) with the same results. I’m not that bad of a shot. Plus, I was hitting the target at 100 yards at an outdoor range with the old barrel. I took it back to the sporting goods store where I had the gunsmithing done. The gunsmith that did the work unfortunately had died. I wanted them to take a look at it – for free but they told me since I had no proof that the work was done there that I’d have to pay for the gunsmithing again. The bottom line was we got into a bit of a “urination” match and I’m going to have to try find another gunsmith that knows what they are doing I guess. Does anybody have any ideas what may be going on with my M1? I’d really appreciate some feedback.

Regards,
hermiem

First-center the sight block by lining up the centerline on the sight, with the centerline on the rifle. Then lower the elavation aperture as far as it will go. Then, raise the aperture 10 clicks. This should be in the center of the target at 100 yds.

Now, make sure the gas screw is tight, as in 10-15 footpounds. A quarter inch drive ratchet with a extension works, and a large screwdriver that FITS will. The single worst thing that causes accuracy problems is a loose screw. And they tend to work loose a lot if they arent tight enough. I hold the cylinder and barrel under the front sight with a crescent wrench to prevent possible twisting. It doesn't have to be gorilla tight, you'll know when the screw stays put. You'll get to a system that works for you.


That should get you started. There are plenty of guys here that will be helpful to you. Let us know how you're doing! Oh yeah-post some pics.

Charlie

You realize, I hope, that the direction arrows on the rear sight denote which way you want to move the shot group. To move the group to the right, turn the windage knob to the right.

About your ammo, what load are you using with your reloads?

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Originally Posted by Charlie59

First-center the sight block by lining up the centerline on the sight, with the centerline on the rifle. Then lower the elavation aperture as far as it will go. Then, raise the aperture 10 clicks. This should be in the center of the target at 100 yds.

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This is pretty much where I start with a rifle having an unknown zero. Sometimes I will start at 50 yards with about 6 clicks up. If the rifle is on the paper with a decent group that is off to one side I will drift the front sight a bit in order to get a "mechanical" windage zero. Drift the front sight in the opposite direction that you want the group to move, IE sight to the right to move the group left. I believe this is the main reason that the wide-base gas cylinder came into use.

If a new barrel is not properly indexed the front sight will be tipped to one side (left if over-clocked and right if under-clocked) and the groups will be off. In addition the rifle may fail the tilt test. A rifle will shoot to the left with an under-clocked barrel.

Good luck in sorting it out.

D-

First, I have to say that many GOOD Gunsmiths know very little about M1 Garands.
Garands are unique in lots of ways. The fact that your gunsmith (at the sporting goods store) suggested you replace a barrel that needed crowning, is a hint. Garand barrels must be indexed properly or your front sight will be out of alignment and the rifle will shoot to one side or the other. It sounds like that may be your problem. I would suggest you find someone who understands how to change an M1 barrel and have him check yours out. It may be a very simple fix.

Did you keep your old barrel? I bought a re-crowning tool that I have used three times so far. It put a decent crown on, and there is information(members to ask) about using them you can find on this Forum, and here: CMP Sales I have found that many gunsmithing tasks you can learn to do yourself. I do whatever I can to save money, but more because I like tinkering around with guns. Somethings I would use a gunsmith for, but not many.

I suggest you get the rifle to a gunsmith use to working on the M1. There are many of us out there, Orion 7, Fulton and ourselves DGR just to mention a few. There are many factors to the M1s accuracy and someone that is use to working on them can solve the problem. We perform tech inspections for a cost of $65. With a tech inspection you will know what is needed and can then make changes based upon knowledge.

Dean-DGR
http://www.dgrguns.com

What Devil Dog says is true. You can look at your rifle from the muzzle end and about a yard away and examine the vertical lines of the front and rear sights. This will be painfully obvious if your front sight leans left or right. Most guys don't get the barrel tight enough, so the barrel leans left and yours seems to be doing that.

Some of the previous posts correctly mentioned that a replacment barrel needs to be indexed properly. Special tools are required to do it on Garands.

Springfield Garands did not have journaling marks on the barrels and the receiver like the 03A3's did, which is why you need a special set of gauges to align the barrel's foreward splines and aft sight base. I think the CMP used to sell them but I am not sure if they still do.

The installer has to torque down the barrel in increments each time checking the indexing and if you go past then you have to un-torque the barrel back until the gauges line up. If your gunsmith did not use the proper gauges when he installed the barrel, it would be very difficult if not nigh impossible to have the barrel indexed properly by eye.

As mentioned, if you take it to someone that knows Garands the first thing they can do is set up the gauges to see if the barrel was indexed correctly.

Also, the standard Garand cleaning kit consisted of a steel cleaning rod. They were also issued with a plastic barrel guide that most most troops didn't bother with and so after hundereds of cleanings from the muzzle end of the rifle and hundreds of rounds fired, the muzzle wears and the rifling is not as tight. Unless the crown is really beaten up, the muzzle wear usually would have more effect on accuracy, this might be why the guy told you to replace the barrel. It sounds like the barrel indexing is certainly suspect. Sucks that you have to spend more $ to get it corrected.

I just re-read your post....
"The windage was the big problem. I had the rear adjustment all the way to the left and I was still hitting about the same on the far left border of the target – at 50 yards. At 100 yards there were no hits on the target"

If your rear sight is all the way to the LEFT, your point of impact WILL be on the LEFT. As stated above, move the rear sight the same direction you want the bullet to move.
I suggest you try again. This time center the Windage adjustment and come UP 12 clicks on Elevation. Start at 50 yds. (or 25, if you can) Each click on an M1's sight will move the bullet 1 M.O.A. Which means 1/2" at 50 yards.
You will be amased how much you learn about an M1 each time you fix or solve a problem. If you realy want to learn something, take the rifle COMPLETELY apart (leave the barrel attached) and study the parts while you clean and lube them.
Good luck.

To go with what Devil Dog says, don't start so far away. Start at 25 yards on a large target to get centered. Saves ammo.

... You've no doubt checked this already, but is the front sight 'way off to one side or the other? If so, use an allen wrench (3/16" IIRC) to loosen the sight, center the sight itself on its base, and cinch to screw down tight.

How do I know about this? Simple: had an M1 with the same problem.

BTW: rear sight moves in the direction you want the impact to move; front sight is opposite. thus:

Rear. Impact
Moves Moves
Left. Left

Front Impact
Moves Moves
Left. Right

HTH -- without confusing the issue.

Ben Hartley

Here are a few photos of how and what to use for indexing a Garand barrel:

Front tool and straight edge attached to the front sight dovetail.
[imgw]http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww241/BillHollinger/Misc%20M1%20Garand/P1030007.jpg[/imgw]

Rear tool and straight edge attached to the rear sight ears and notch.
[imgw]http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww241/BillHollinger/Misc%20M1%20Garand/P1030011.jpg[/imgw]

Alligning the two together using a white sheet of paper stabbed on the muzzle and fore lighting.
[imgw]http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww241/BillHollinger/Misc%20M1%20Garand/P1030008.jpg[/imgw]

Is a level used at all? Thank you.

Charlie,
When you use the tool shown in Bill's pics, you do NOT use a level. Indexing is checked "by eye". If you don't have Bill's tool, you can use a Machinist's Level, which is adjustable. Either way is acceptable. The advantage of using the level if you are just checking indexing.... you dont have remove the rifle from the stock or remove the rear sight.`

Careful use of precision levels will, usually, result in well centered front and rear sights. If the windage is well off on the first test firing, we've generally encountered other dramas that need sorting more than the indexing.

Do any of you guys know what the plus/minus tolerances were, or did the barrel have to be dead nuts on the money? BTW, I'm anxious to see if this lets us know if his rifle shoots alright.

Charlie

If the front sight had to overhang the base on one side or the other to zero, then it was out of specifications.

From your post, I took it you live in Raleigh, NC. You might want to consider driving up to the Richmond, VA gunshow next weekend, January 9 & 10. Gus Fisher (Gus's Garands) can do an inspection on it and let you know if something is really out of kilter. I think he only charges something like $25 to $30 for a very detailed inspection, not exactly sure, it has been a while since he did one of mine. He can fix most problems right at the show, unless it needs barrel work. He was the USMC chief armorer for the NM M14 rifle team when he was at Quantico. He really knows Garands, carbines, M14's, and just about any millitary rifle / pistol. Best to get to the show early because the work piles up early for people wanting Gus to work on their rifles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmoore

If the front sight had to overhang the base on one side or the other to zero, then it was out of specifications.

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Thank you.

As a bit of trivia that many here already know, the wide base gas cylinder was adopted to allow more M1s to pass post test fire/zero inspection. It gave the assemblers a bit more leeway and saved a great deal of time.

BTW Charlie59, just hit the thanks button at the bottom right of a post- It also saves time!;)

Were you shooting at the Wake Co range? I shoot there fairly "regularly" with my Garand. I'm FAR from an expert, but can give you some help. Bring your old barrel and I'll gauge it for you too (to see if things were as bad as the smith said).

I suggest coming to one of the Garand matches held in the eastern part of the state (Pitt Co Wildlife Club and Down East Garand Shooters). An old USMC armorer comes to both when he's feeling well enough and can help you out with any problems you may be having.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Charlie59

Do any of you guys know what the plus/minus tolerances were, or did the barrel have to be dead nuts on the money? BTW, I'm anxious to see if this lets us know if his rifle shoots alright.

Charlie

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think barrel alignment spec is +/- 20 minutes

Let me get this straight. A gunsmith told you your barrel was fine so you replaced it and your troubles began. Can you get that rifle to Gus Fisher? Do it!! He has worked on 3 of my Garands and they all run better, not worse. By the way, Gus is silly cheap. Good luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Calif-Steve

Let me get this straight. A gunsmith told you your barrel was fine so you replaced it and your troubles began. Can you get that rifle to Gus Fisher? Do it!! He has worked on 3 of my Garands and they all run better, not worse. By the way, Gus is silly cheap.

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...and a nice guy.

Bob

"think barrel alignment spec is +/- 20 minutes"

That may very well be true, but how do you measure 1/3 of a degree?:surrender:

Gentlemen, Gus Fisher imparted his indexing method to me and it's simplicity at it's finest. All you really need is a barrel vise, a receiver wrench, and a 360-degree Electrician's protractor with a Magnetic base(I picked up mine at Sear's hardware for $15.00)

1.) Slide barrel into vise all the way and tighten.
2.) Slide Gas-Cylinder most of the way on.
3.) Set protractor on front sightbase after removing front sight(And making sure it's flat with no burrs) perpendicular to barrel. Read protractor arrow and mark it with the sliding red dog on the protractor face.
4.) Handscrew receiver onto barrel until handtight. Start final draw with wrench applied to front of receiver, stopping shy of straight up.
5.) Lay protractor across rear of receiver right behind sightbase on the flat where the hashmarks for windage are, commence final draw.
6.) Watch dialface and needle, stop when needle is 1/3 of way to Dogmark from last degree-mark on dial( You may have to eyeball this as it's less than 1-degree). Recheck front mark by putting protractor on front sightbase to make sure it didn't move, needle should be pointing at Dogmark.

One more thing, when correcting an underdrawn barrel always check headspace for minimum safe headspace(Close on Go-Gauge).
You're done.

I've done approximately 25 barrel so far with Gus' method and every one was dead on at 100 with front and rear sights centered. all that was needed was elevation adjustments.

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Originally Posted by Devil Dog

"think barrel alignment spec is +/- 20 minutes"

That may very well be true, but how do you measure 1/3 of a degree?:surrender:

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https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...16046575-1.jpg

The level divisions equal 0.005" per foot

that equals .0004 degrees or 0.24 minutes

so if you have a level in the front and one on the back and they are less than one division apart you are good to the spec:beerchug:

I knew you could dazzel me with Trig. but I'm still good at Arithmetic.....
.0004 Degrees equals .024 Minutes.
I believe you, but I still think 20 minutes is tough to do.

I wonder if we'll ever find out if his rifle is OK now?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Devil Dog

I knew you could dazzel me with Trig. but I'm still good at Arithmetic.....
.0004 Degrees equals .024 Minutes.
I believe you, but I still think 20 minutes is tough to do.

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of course you are correct on the math. Never have had a barrel that I could not put spot on (both gages level)

Not with Gus' method Mark.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Waits

Not with Gus' method Mark.

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Dave not sure what you are trying to say?

Using two levels is essentially the same as what Gus is doing. The machinists levels are incredibly more accurate than the angle finder - not sure it makes a huge difference at 200 yards - but it does not hurt

The least count of any measuring equipment is the smallest quantity that can be measured accurately using that instrument.Thus Least Count indicates the degree of accuracy of measurement that can be achieved by the measuring instrument.

More here: Least count - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What I'm trying to say Mark is that a 360 degree angle finder such as an Electrician's protractor can measure in degrees and parts of degrees. Granted, 20-minutes of angle is negligible but, I have done it with these. You oughtta try it sometime, I think you'll be surprised sir.

Just for S's & G's, How much will the very top of the the front sight blade move if the barrel is off 1 degree of rotation? As I said, I don't remember trig. Your up Mark.
(Top of blade is 1" above the center of the bore)

Hi, DD...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Devil Dog

Just for S's & G's, How much will the very top of the the front sight blade move if the barrel is off 1 degree of rotation? As I said, I don't remember trig. Your up Mark.
(Top of blade is 1" above the center of the bore)

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Not Mark. And you don't need trig. Given that your 1" sight height is accurate, consider:

pi = 3.1416; circumference of circle described by sight rotation = 2 times pi, or 6.2832 inches; 6.2832 / 360 degrees in a full circle = 0.017453 ~ 0.0175 inches.

If that's correct, you're looking at approximately 2 inches change-of-impact at 100 yards, or two clicks appropriate windage.

Ben Hartley

Roughly .018", I think.

ETA Too slow on the typing!

Thanks, guys.
Then, if you are off a complete degree, your front sight would only be out of possition by less then .018". I think the sight being off that much would not be an issue. I do think the gas cylinder/op. rod position would be more of a problem. I use a Starret #12 machinest's adjustable bubble level that is graduated in one degree increments. I try to get the barrel "perfectly" indexed, but I'm sure it's never perfect. (I'm looking at a "bubble")

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Devil Dog

Thanks, guys.
Then, if you are off a complete degree, your front sight would only be out of possition by less then .018". I think the sight being off that much would not be an issue. I do think the gas cylinder/op. rod position would be more of a problem. I use a Starret #12 machinest's adjustable bubble level that is graduated in one degree increments. I try to get the barrel "perfectly" indexed, but I'm sure it's never perfect. (I'm looking at a "bubble")

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if you are off .018 you will also use 2 minutes of windage to zero the rifle

hermiem,
I've personally gotten a lot of great information from this thread from all of the posters, but did you ever get your problem solved?

I was looking forward to finding out what happened, myself.

Anybody "PM" him?

I just did.

C.

This thread was interesting!
"Hermien" started it by asking a question on Jan. 1st. After TWO weeks and 44 replies and we have not heard a thing from Hermien. I hope we have helped him. Just an acknowledgement from him would be appreciated.