What in the world did I get myself into?

Hello. New guy, first post. Not sure what I have but I believe I have a Model 1903, because that's what it says on top of the receiver behind the front site, which is elevated. It says, "U.S. Springfield Armory, Model 1903. Under that is the serial 685268, which means (I think) it was manufactured in 1917. However, it is an old graycolored steel. The piece in front, which has the elevated site, is a greenish parkerized piece, as is the sight. The sight is stamped "R" on the base and the sight. The barrel is marked "RA" It has a stamped "bomb" with flames coming out of the top and has 1-42 under it. The bolt is black and has an "R" under the safety lug and under the bolt handle. When holding the riflle, there is another tab which says"On" and "Off" on either side. This is in addition to the safety on the bolt asembly(which says "ready" and "safe"). The trigger assembly and the floor plate are gray parkerized. There is a letter"R" on the stock, in the indentation on the left side. Also on the stock are the marks, "SA SPG(?) and another set of marks D.A.??. On the bottom are two circled P's. Bayonet lug has an "R". Top of stock has 1087 stamped in, and the bottom has an 8.

I would really, really appreciate some guidance. Fellow I got it from said it was a 1903A3, which it certainly is not. I've been trying to figure this out but I am ignorant of these guns. Can you give me any advice without pictures?

It simply sounds like a parts gun from second war. Started way back during the first great conflagration but was rebuilt a few times at least. Sounds like a possible good shooter depending on a couple of things. Just doesn't sound like that's what you wanted in the beginning?

As browningautorifle stated, you have a 1903, which happens to be a LN SHT receiver, that has been rebuilt at least once. The rifle was manufactured in mid-July 1917 and most likely saw action in France.

It is not a SRS hit, nor does it have great collector value. It may be a great shooter though. Its value is probably between $400 and $600 depending on where you are located. Welcome to the world of 1903's and to the forum. We will help you any way we can.

Jim

Thanks, fellas. I knew it wasn't an 03A3 when I saw the sights, but was really confused when I saw the "mish-mash" of parts. The barrel is pristine, so I'm sure if it saw action it was redone somewhere along the line. Plus, it's a Remington barrel, I believe, hence the RA on it? I thought I read somewhere that one had to be careful in shooting 03's with low serial numbers. Mine seems pretty low, but the barrel seems brand new. What is the caution all about? Poor steel in the lower numbers?

I sort of fell for this rifle. It's got some style, handles really nicely, doesn't weigh much and I am interested in WWI, so . . .looks like I might be here awhile, as I see there are some variants. Based on your valuation, I paid a bit too much but that's how you learn. Thanks.:)

Sounds like the barrel is a replacement possibly done during WWII but could have been added later since you can still find WWII Remington replacement barrels with WWII dates for the 03a3 and these would fit an 03 receiver.

Some low numbered 03's were rebuilt during WWII as an expedient to get rifles in the hands of the troops for training and also for use by second line troops like guards and MP's. You can find them with barrels from different manufacturers Remington being one but also a few others that just made replacment barrels. At the beginning of the war there werent enough M1s to go around so they tried to send those to the front line units. Although the Marines used 03's during the Guadalcanal campaign.

The issue with shooting low numberd 03s is that they found that the heat treat methods used on the low numbered ones were inconsistent and that there were a few cases of the receivers blowing up due to bad heat treating. They changed the heat treat method starting with the "high numbered" rifles but once they issued the low numbered rifles they had no way to tell which ones were good or bad.
They did indeed use some low numbered rifles during WWII and those were probably re-heat treated and then had new barrels installed as part of the rebuild. The problem is that there is no way (short of metallurigcal testing which would likely cost more than the rifle is worth) of telling whether the receiver has been properly re-heat treated as part of a rebuild or if someone just replaced tha barrel on an old original receiver. Having said that there were actually very few recorded blown receivers but since there were some the CMP recommends you dont shoot the low numbered receivers as a safety precaution.

Gary C

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by garyc

Sounds like the barrel is a replacement possibly done during WWII but could have been added later since you can still find WWII Remington replacement barrels with WWII dates for the 03a3 and these would fit an 03 receiver.

Some low numbered 03's were rebuilt during WWII as an expedient to get rifles in the hands of the troops for training and also for use by second line troops like guards and MP's. You can find them with barrels from different manufacturers Remington being one but also a few others that just made replacment barrels. At the beginning of the war there werent enough M1s to go around so they tried to send those to the front line units. Although the Marines used 03's during the Guadalcanal campaign.

The issue with shooting low numberd 03s is that they found that the heat treat methods used on the low numbered ones were inconsistent and that there were a few cases of the receivers blowing up due to bad heat treating. They changed the heat treat method starting with the "high numbered" rifles but once they issued the low numbered rifles they had no way to tell which ones were good or bad.
They did indeed use some low numbered rifles during WWII and those were probably re-heat treated and then had new barrels installed as part of the rebuild. The problem is that there is no way (short of metallurigcal testing which would likely cost more than the rifle is worth) of telling whether the receiver has been properly re-heat treated as part of a rebuild or if someone just replaced tha barrel on an old original receiver. Having said that there were actually very few recorded blown receivers but since there were some the CMP recommends you dont shoot the low numbered receivers as a safety precaution.

Gary C

---

no 03,s were ever {reheattreated} and then issued.. they were however, proof tested at a higher proof..75,000 if i remember right,
most SHT rifles that were rebarreled 1942 to 44 were reproofed.
recievers didnt just burst out of the blue...
the issue was and is,
how they handle a failure, the SHT recievers tended to shatter, the DHT pealed back..same with the NS made rifles.
most that failed, had bore opstructions, ammo issues, or wrong ammo..
if you pick up a copy of Hatchers Notebook. he goes into detail on these, and lists several pages of failures by serial number, and the stories with the outcome.
though i shoot my SHT RIA, i dont recommend that anyone ever do so..
if you do, wear safety glasses, and good gloves.

Hard telling when and where this rifle found an RA '03 barrel. I thuoght all of the RA barrels in early 1942 went on rifles. Not a spares barrel, by any means. I would guess a fairy recent re-barrel job. Perhaps 1-2 yeras ago? Not sure by any means. Is there large "B" stamp on the bottom of the triggerguard? If so, then a Greek rebuild. Rifle isn't the ideal shooter.

No, there isn't any mark or stamp on the triggergaurd anywhere. I was thinking about this. In a combat situation, with a rather continuous rate of fire, obviously things got hot real fast (no pun intended). But in shooting single shots, off hand or from the bench, or when hunting, would that well-spaced single shot generate enough heat to cause either a shattering or a peeling of the receiver? Is it at all significant that the only markings on the bolt are the letter "R" under the bolt handle and on the bottom of the bolt? I can see no number, although there a mark that is under the bolt handle that was struck where the curve of that handle begins, rendering it unreadable. However it is not really near the "R". Is this serial number one of the low ones? It's 685268.

Jeesh.

Below serial #800,000 for SA, and #286,506 for RI. I believe most would agree that you should not shoot it.

"R" is a Remington bolt. Rapid firing of a SHT rifle means nothing. The problem is if the cartridge case fails the rifle does not do a good job of holding the failure inside the rifle. The very hard steel of the receiver will/can/might fail and you will/can/might lose a finger/eye/head. I think this is a put together parts gun. But understand the RA barrel has worth, the stock has worth and so does the triggerguard. All valuable parts.

Thanks, everyone. I've learned a lot. Quite an expensive lesson to have learned, but there you have it. I am most appreciative of your opinions and the "collective" hints that I not shoot it. I won't. If I can farm out the stock and other parts, maybe I can recoup my loss. On the other hand, it's a wall hanger for the present and a reminder to always, always, always know about that which you intend to purchase. I'll be looking for another but this time I'm better equipped to do so.

Regards,

Cordite.

To expand on what Calif-Steve wrote, most shooters agree that the LN receivers are probably safe with military ammunition, if both the rifle & ammunition are in good condition. Commercial ammunition or handloads loaded to higher pressure levels puts additional strain on the receiver. If you choose to shoot the gun, make sure the chamber is clean & dry; the bolt face and especially the firing pin hole have no eroded or pitted areas and are flat and clean; that the firing pin hole is round and not enlarged and that the striker tip is round or hemispherical and smooth; no erosion or pitting any where. Any roughness, out of tolerance, erosion, pitting, etc. on these parts can casue a pierced primer. A bad case can split or fail. Both of these conditions release gas into the action and, as noted before, that can shatter and cause catesrophic failure on the receiver.

Also, since the rifle may be a parts gun put together by someone other than the army of CMP, it would be a good idea to check the headspace.

Thanks, Kirk, for the information. A knowledgeable milsurp shooter/collector I know is going to meet me at the range this week and we'll remotely fire it to see what happens. I'll keep this thread posted. He's got the correct guages, too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cordite

Thanks, everyone. I've learned a lot. Quite an expensive lesson to have learned, but there you have it. I am most appreciative of your opinions and the "collective" hints that I not shoot it. I won't. If I can farm out the stock and other parts, maybe I can recoup my loss. On the other hand, it's a wall hanger for the present and a reminder to always, always, always know about that which you intend to purchase. I'll be looking for another but this time I'm better equipped to do so.

Regards,

Cordite.

---

Cordite
It would be a bit extreme to strip or just hang on the wall, as a few have said, some do shoot LN rifles, i am a novice on these rifles (M1903) and purchased my first one last year and i recently picked up another but this was a LN RIA M1903 and it is a lovely old rifle.
I was in a dilema as to shoot it or not, in the end i decided to shoot it using squib/downloaded ammo i use this on a 50/100 mtr range and the other M1903 i have i use on the longer distance ranges.
Another option is to find an .22 kit (i dont know how rare these are or the price), or produce a .22 conversion kit which i have on the drawing board at present (if any member has an M1922 bolt laying around let me know).
Have a look at the thread in this forum a member had a freind produce a barrel insert.
Being in the UK is a draw back as these rifles are as rare as rocking horse s**t, and demand a high price but it hasnt put me off, its the most accurate milsurp rifle i have ever shot, even with my shooting.

What to do, what to do. I have seen discussions regarding this issue and the camps are pretty well divided. As the pressure of 75,000 (c.u.p.?) seems to be the critical point, some have indicated that they regularly shhot milsurp ammo through their LN 1903. Some use commercial ammo but no more than a 150 grain FMJ. At this point I am going to the range and shoot it remotely by strapping it to a tractor tire and pulling the trigger by means of a thin rope. Sounds a little wacky but I know men who have proofed their black powder smoothbores this way. I think the concept is the same, but I'm not using a proof load. Hearing what everyone has said has made me cautious, which is a good thing, but I think this might do the trick. I sure don't want to just use it as a wall hanger but I certainly am not looking to blow my face up, either. Tomorrow is the day and I'll report back.

standard 30-06 factory usually run around 45,000
most Federal, and Remington is a little lower...
even a hot 30-06 wont be over 55,000

Went to the range and we did what I said. We remotely pulled the trigger on 12 rounds, checking the rifle closely after each. (First things first, the headspace checked okay - that's "go?" My friend just said we were good to go). These were Federal factory rounds. No trouble. Then I benched the rest of the box with nary a hint of trouble. Didn't group very well but I know that was me, as I was a bit nervous and I know I was flinching, anticipating something. So there you have it. This rifle had no issue so far with a box of factory loads.

12 rounds might sound excessive but where safety is concerned, I would not have minded the whole box, but I naturally wanted to shoot it. Going back Saturday to try again. I'll probably stick with Federal, Winchester and remington loads.

Happy boy.