Printable View
I ordered what looks like a very sound Enfield 2a the other day. What is a safe ammunition to use? I keep reading that commercial .308s are dangerous, or at least long-run destructive to headspace. So what do you guys shoot? I don't hand load yet, so I'm looking at surplus military NATO ammo. Does this stuff sound safe? Paki milsurp:
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalo...l-308-762-nato
308 either military OR civilian will be just fine.
Below are two good links to read, and also remember there is a difference between rated chamber pressure and actual chamber pressure. Factory loaded ammunition for the British .303 is kept below 43,000 CUP (actual) but the rated pressure is 46,000 CUP or 49,000 PSI.
The actual chamber pressure for the .308 is actually LOWER than the 7.62 NATO. ;)
Is it safe to shoot 308 Winchester in a rifle chambered for 7.62 NATO?
What about 7.62 in a 308?
By Jim Bullock
http://www.smellysmleshooters.net/ammopressure.htm
The Truth About 7.62x51mm NATO and 308 Winchester
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...EjYDYEkYiUH5Qg
Long term solution is to reload your own ammo..
I have been reloading for many years, milsurp brass is thicker than commercial brass. The military chamber is for lack of a better word, looser than a commercil chamber. The other posters put up several great articles on the subject, I have read them all and the points are all good. The SAMMI specification commerical ammo will cause higher pressures if fired from a MILSURP rifle with a chamber that is not close to SAMMI spces. If you have fired the weapon, check your brass and primer, how do they look. I was very lucky with 2A and 2A1, both chambers were in excellent condition and no evidence of problems with pressure.
Wincheser makes a white box 7.62 NATO cartridge that I have fired in my 2A with good results. Of course its reloadable brass. If you are not a reloaded it is certainly a good idea; certianly if you are going to continue to shoot MILSURP weapons. I have fired .308 Wincheseter ammo and my 2A showed no indication of overpressure on the fired brass.
As always if you doubt your weapon or do not know its history then PLEASE have it checked by a competent gunsmith. :thup:
A longer and fatter military chamber (looser than a commercial chamber) will not raise or increase chamber pressures if commercial ammunition is fired in a military rifle chamber. (how do you increase chamber pressure by increasing chamber volume or area?)
You have less than 2,000 PSI (transducer method) difference between the chamber pressure "ratings" of the 7.62 NATO and the .308 Winchester, which is insignificant.
Below is ballistic pressure testing done by the reloading company Lyman on the the 180 grain 30-06 made by Winchester. Looking at the bottom of this photo you will see the "Extreme Variation" is over 10,000 PSI and the "Standard Variation" is over 3,000 PSI.
(test rounds No.3 and No.4 had over 10,000 PSI difference on firing)
Again the pressure difference of less than 2,000 PSI between the .308 and 7.62 NATO is insignificant. The biggest differences between the .308 and 7.62 is case construction with military cases being constructed heavier to withstand the rigors of combat.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...06chart1-1.jpg
We did NO damage firing commercial ammunition in our American M-1917 and 03 Springfield's and we had the same rated pressure difference between commercial and military 30-06 ammunition as the .308 and 7.62 NATO.
The only thing that happens is commercial cartridge cases do not like being fired in military chambers and tend to stretch in the web area.
Below is a commercially loaded .303 Winchester cartridge case fired in a British Enfield with the head space set at .067, this case stretched .009 in the web area and military HXP ammunition would show NO signs of stretching fired in the same Enfield.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MGP45211-1.jpg
The .308 cases below were reloaded and fired till they separated, and not all cartridge cases are made to the same quality standard.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../308fail-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...308fail2-1.jpg
The above commercial cases would NOT have lasted as long before case separation if fired in a military chamber due to the longer head space and larger diameter chambers of military rifles.
We Americans have been firing our commercial cases(and factory ammunition) in our Enfields for years and what should be noted is the people who complain about head space and case life the most are shooting commercial American SAAMI cases and the people who never complain about head space and case life are using military grade Greek HXP cases for reloading.
Hey Ed,
Have you dug out from the last week yet!
You guys didn't get much, did you? I'm in Phoenixville. We're over 70 inches for the winter...so far. The town where I teach got 26" in this last blast.
At last we have something to blame on the Australians that they can't deny, our 34 inches of snow was caused by the "El Niño effect". Hot air and warm currents from the east coast of Australia moving eastward and hitting the west coast of North America and mixing with cold Canadian air caused our snow storm on the east coast of the U.S. (every state but Hawaii had measurable snowfall this week) :yikes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pattern14
Below, 18 inches of snow on my truck and my snowblower, please notice the faint dusting of Vegimite on the snow turning it a blackish-brown color.
The odd part is how many friends you have after a snowstorm when you have a snowblower and none of them had any Enfield manuals to trade for the snowblower clearing work. :bitch:
snow there 46 + deg c here o well.
Ah...but no flies here, mate, not to mention box jellies, sharks, dingoes, or endless poisonous insects!
I've put close to 500 rds in mine. Milsurp and factory loads do fine
I've shot a "few" rounds through these as well, mostly at speed. NO DRAMAS! They were great fun when surplus ammo was 10 cents a round. I used 'em for fun demos of running house clearing exercises and "CQB" w/ a bolt gun.
Mr. Horton, here's a slight twist for you to ponder- These rifles mostly have chrome lined chambers. Generally industrial hard chrome has a lower C.o.F. than steel, don't remember quite how much right now... It seems that might incrementally increase bolt thrust forces a bit. (Unless you duct tape the case to the extractor first.)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tthrust1-1.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tthrust2-1.jpg
For a rough military chamber with a 0.55 Coefficient of Friction the image below shows the case stretching and thinning where case head separations usually occurs.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...oviedsf1-1.gif
POLISHED DRY CHAMBER.... This is the condition of dry brass and a polished chamber. The peak total load on the bolt face is 4720 pounds. The maximum effective plastic strain is only 0.02 in/in in the case wall where thinning usually occurs. There is very little thinning of the brass forward of the web.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...oviedsf1-1.gif
Mine is not to reason why, I polish my chambers and keep them dry. ;)
So a 2A has a built in "wet" chamber. Oh, the horror!
I'll try and find some actual numbers later.