7.62 No4 MKI conversion question

I saw a No4 MkI, 7.62 conversion yesterday. The conversion was done by Parker Hale of Birmingham as stamped on the upper receiver.

It has a PH5C rear sight and is in over all, very good condition.

There is one other marking on the right side of the receiver, it's either part of a star or an arrow, with a number 1.

The only other markings on the rifle are all on the left side and the bolt. No4 MkI is very faintly on the left pad where the rear sight is screwed on and there is an M47C as well as an A prefix four digit serial number. The bolt, is matching.

The storey on it is that the rifle came from an older fellow on Vancouver Island and there were several included in the package. The previous owner was quite frugal as he only had one sight that he shared between several rifles and the rifles all had windage and elevation indications for them for this sight. Now, the conundrum, the other rifles all have the same markings with higher numbers stamped beside the star/arrow. I believe the highest number is 42.There are still a couple of them left, without rear sight and I am contemplating purchasing one, if I can get the owner to sell it.

My quuestions are, I) is the rifle likely a club rifle 2) could it have been built for an organisation similar to the DCRA in the UK 3) is it possibly military or police issue?

I suspect that it is a club rifle. I will ask for some pics, any idea of value and what would the difference in price be for a rifle in mirror condition without the rear sight?:help:

What configuration is it in; Heavy barrel as per an L39A1 or Envoy, or a typical DCRA conversion with full length woodwork?

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Originally Posted by Strangely Brown

What configuration is it in; Heavy barrel as per an L39A1 or Envoy, or a typical DCRA conversion with full length woodwork?

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What he said. Any idea what part of the Island they came from?

It sounds like the old gent had a number of DCRA conversions, which was very common among the more serious target shooters in the 60s and 70s. The numbers you saw would be the conversion serial numbers if they are stamped on the top face of the bolt handle, barrel ring and barrel reinforce. These have been discussed here and elsewhere online. At least one person is compling a list of serial numbers to see what can be learned from it. (Not much other than highest number seen as the rifles were whatever the owner sent in)

It is in standard full length wood configuration. It retains the 303 magazine and looks very much like the DCRA converted rifles.
There isn't a number stamped on the bolt handle, like on the DCRA rifles. Only the same A prefix, four digit number as on the butt socket. The numbers are located on the back of the bolt.
There aren't any C broad arrows etc. I was told the fellow was interested in international competition and is now about 80 years old and has a strong english accent. I don't know anything else.

I really don't think these are DCRA rifles but they would certainly qualify in the matches. Remember, the number stamped on the receiver ring is "1".
The other numbers are no higher than 42. This fellow would have had to be the very first fellow to get a DCRA rifle.

I don't have my books right now so I can't check anything out. I've lent them all to the owner of said rifle. Who, built the DCRA rifles? Are you saying that they were sent to England then sent back again? I was under the impression that SA and CA did the conversions on them in Canada.

Are there British commercial proof marks on the barrel? (if not it wasn't done here).

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Originally Posted by bearhunter

It is in standard full length wood configuration. It retains the 303 magazine and looks very much like the DCRA converted rifles.
There isn't a number stamped on the bolt handle, like on the DCRA rifles. Only the same A prefix, four digit number as on the butt socket. The numbers are located on the back of the bolt.
There aren't any C broad arrows etc. I was told the fellow was interested in international competition and is now about 80 years old and has a strong english accent. I don't know anything else.

I really don't think these are DCRA rifles but they would certainly qualify in the matches. Remember, the number stamped on the receiver ring is "1".
The other numbers are no higher than 42. This fellow would have had to be the very first fellow to get a DCRA rifle.

I don't have my books right now so I can't check anything out. I've lent them all to the owner of said rifle. Who, built the DCRA rifles? Are you saying that they were sent to England then sent back again? I was under the impression that SA and CA did the conversions on them in Canada.

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If there are no conversion numbers or the stylized maple leaf proof mark, then this is probably just a Long Branch / C.A.L. (Canadian Arsenals Ltd.) barrel fitted to a regular No4. The mag didn't matter as it was all single loading for target work anyway.

As for the "serial numbers", it sounds more like someone was serial numbering rifles he owned or worked on - a local amateur gunsmith perhaps? There were quite a few very competent "amateur" gunsmiths among the DCRA shooters - and of course some less competent folks who went at it hammer and tongs, at least that's how it looks when you see the rifles, but one has to bear in mind that the only thing 90% of the target shooters cared about was performance, not looks.

The DCRA conversions were all done at Long Branch/C.A.L. AFAIK, there was no equivalent program in the UK. If you wanted a conversion done there, you paid a gunsmith to do it or did it yourself.

If you have an opportunity to speak to the original owner, I'd suggest asking him what he thought of the accuracy of the 7.62mm rifles.

Surely if it was stamped Parker Hale, then they carried out the conversion (Unless some dealer faked it).

It's definitely not a Long Branch. I will try to get som pics up. I have to get to the rifle first.

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Originally Posted by Brit plumber

Surely if it was stamped Parker Hale, then they carried out the conversion (Unless some dealer faked it).

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Parker Hale sold a quantity of No4 Mk2 actions, or perhaps whole rifles, at some point in the 60s, as several in the 1954/55 range have turned up here as genuine DCRA conversions. I've had two over the years. The marking being thus:

Parker-Hale
Birmingham

Small stamping right on the barrel ring top centre.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

Parker Hale sold a quantity of No4 Mk2 actions, or perhaps whole rifles, at some point in the 60s, as several in the 1954/55 range have turned up here as genuine DCRA conversions. I've had two over the years. The marking being thus:

Parker-Hale
Birmingham

Small stamping right on the barrel ring top centre.

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I see!

Hello all, I am new and the owner of the No4 Mk1 that Bearhunter is refering to. The conversion is very well done, has full wood and yes the markings are a little strange. I will hope to have pictures for all to see very soon. Had made arrangements to have some taken tonight but Rambo is not feeling well so hopefully tomorrow. The original owner was from the Victoria area and sold quite a few to a friend who was willing to sell this one to me. It is marked with what appears to be part of a star and the no 1. I have seen the other low serial numbered rifles and all are marked the same, they do not appear to have been done by the original owner unless he was very skilled. I think all shot VERY well and believe I might have seen the owner several years ago at the airport in Victoria, I think he was home from Bisley. The mag does not serial number match but the bolt/gun does with a quite low number. Believe me I am not a expert, it seems to me that Bearhunter found this one to be interesting due to the odd markings. The stock is Marked Z F. Again hope to have photo's soon.

A bit of info on the ZF marking here: marking on Enfields? - Military Surplus Collectors Forums

Oh no...... the dreaded ZF mark! Hopefully not ANOTHER with a changed butt or an escapee from the Zimbabwe Forces.........

Feedback please ...

I'm trying to help out another new collector.

I really think the rifle in these pictures is DCRA 1. The time frame of initial aquisition is correct and all of the parts are correct. I would be a wonderful thing for the present owner of this rifle to have stumbled accross such a find. He has just started putting a collection together with his son and they have both become addicted to Lee Enfields.

Photo's of the gun have been taken and appear in the post above this one. The bolt also has the star 1 on the top of it.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Oh no...... the dreaded ZF mark! Hopefully not ANOTHER with a changed butt or an escapee from the Zimbabwe Forces.........

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:rofl:

Regards,
Badger

:yikes: Looks like you've got DCRA conversion No1! Pull off the handguard and see if those marks are duplicated on the barrel reinforce, and post a photo if they are please.

That's the Parker Hale marking I was referring to below the conversion markings BTW.

As for the ZF mark, probably that's a long butt that was put on for no other reason than that it was long, but who knows for sure. I'd hate to think Parker Hale was selling ZF rifles...

You've got a pristine looking Long Branch maple forend. Probably chosen for its hardness/rigidity and possibly weight.

Thanks to all for the information and thoughts on the rifle. I just read a article on a different DCRA conversion number 692 and the pictures show the idential "star" that my rifle has. Now the most intersting piece of the story as it has been related to me. The owner from the Island picked this and the two other low number rifles from a large batch that were for sale. He took it because he thought it looked like it might be a "good shooter". This story was related to me today from my friend Rambo who called the original owner about the gun. What are the odds of him picking up and purchasing the first one built?? As Bearhunter said I do love Lee Enfields and yesterday purchased my 12th since May/09. Also if Bearhunter wants to he can tell you about a interesting No5 I have, purchased from the same person that sold me this gun.

I suspect it is not a DCRA conversion, but a gunsmith special using a Canadian Arsenals 7.62 barrel. DCRA conversions had a new serial number stamped onto the top of the bolt handle and a matching number stamped onto the receiver's right side just behind the barrel. A number of CA barrels were sent to England. It looks like Parker Hale got hold of at least one of them.

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Originally Posted by jona

I suspect it is not a DCRA conversion, but a gunsmith special using a Canadian Arsenals 7.62 barrel. DCRA conversions had a new serial number stamped onto the top of the bolt handle and a matching number stamped onto the receiver's right side just behind the barrel. A number of CA barrels were sent to England. It looks like Parker Hale got hold of at least one of them.

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How does one explain the stylized maple leaf proof mark on the bolt and barrel ring then?

Notice that the "1" is in the same font used on other conversions. I haven't seen that font anywhere else on a Lee Enfield of any type.

These barrels did get fitted to odd actions now and then, but I've never seen one of those that had a conversion number or the maple leaf stamp.

We've been over the Parker Hale thing. See my previous posts.

I agree with Surpmil completely. This is, with out doubt, DCRA conversion No.1. What most people call the conversion number is, as was explained to me, actually a Magnaflex (sp??) number. When an action was received for conversion it would be gauged for suitability, the conversion done then proof fired. If it passed proof it would be Magnaflexed and re-gauged at which point it would receive it’s proof mark (stylized Maple Leaf over a P) and Magnaflex tracking number. Of the half dozen DCRA 7.62mm rifles I have owned and perhaps additional 10+ I have viewed all had their original serial numbers in tact. Because the rifles used for the conversion process, for DCRA shooters, were sent in by the individual shooter any action may be encountered. In this case the rifle used went through Parker Hale’s hands before it was sold. Congratulations on a significant find enfield303t. You have many of us Long Branch collectors feeling very jealous right now! Thank You also to Bearhunter for helping enfield303t and bringing him here.

Looks like the real deal to me.I handled/seen 30-40 dcra's over the years and everything looks right with this one.
This one should be documented and perserved as a piece of canadian target shooting history.

With less than 2000 offically converted they are very under valued.

Someone should soon write a history of canadian target shooting before all the info is lost.

As I've heard it, the bolts and bodies were magnafluxed to check for cracks (same process used for cylinder heads etc) then hardness tested. If they passed those two, then the conversion was done, proof fired and if that was succesful, then the maple leaf mark and the conversion number went on. If one looks underneath the bodies near the front guard screw boss, the 'punch' marks left by the Brinell hardness tester can be seen.

Congrats to the new owner - you do have a piece of history there. I'd agree about the lack of documentation on Canadian target shooting etc. The knowledge is disappearing with the people, and quickly.

It would be nice to hear about the other rifles, and I'd suggest contacting the original owner and getting his comments on tape or paper ASAP.

I seem to recall that our L8 conversion programme was centred around these CA barrels as hey were available, off the shelf....., albeit without bayonet lugs. It indicates that a quantity of the barrels did come to the UK. In fact, we have a sequel to this project at Warminster.

Nothing is ever complicated with small-arms

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Originally Posted by jona

I suspect it is not a DCRA conversion, but a gunsmith special using a Canadian Arsenals 7.62 barrel. DCRA conversions had a new serial number stamped onto the top of the bolt handle and a matching number stamped onto the receiver's right side just behind the barrel. A number of CA barrels were sent to England. It looks like Parker Hale got hold of at least one of them.

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I know I am not a expert on Lee Enfields but can't imagine a gunsmith building this rifle as after seeing #12 and #40 personally and pictures of #692 which all have the identical markings he would have been the busiest gunsmith in the world. I do feel fortunate to have this rifle and know it is being treasured by my son and I.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

As I've heard it, the bolts and bodies were magnafluxed to check for cracks (same process used for cylinder heads etc) then hardness tested. If they passed those two, then the conversion was done, proof fired and if that was succesful, then the maple leaf mark and the conversion number went on. If one looks underneath the bodies near the front guard screw boss, the 'punch' marks left by the Brinell hardness tester can be seen.

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That sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Looks like I was given the sequence of testing slightly out of order. The old gent who passed the information along to me confessed that his memory was a little dim but thought the way he explained it to me was what he was told when he bought his rifle. Thanks for setting me strait.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

As I've heard it, the bolts and bodies were magnafluxed to check for cracks (same process used for cylinder heads etc) then hardness tested. If they passed those two, then the conversion was done, proof fired and if that was succesful, then the maple leaf mark and the conversion number went on. If one looks underneath the bodies near the front guard screw boss, the 'punch' marks left by the Brinell hardness tester can be seen.
snip....

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They're not actually Brinell impressions (too small). DPN or HRC of some type.

Hardness impressions are also on both bolt lugs, and sometimes on the boltheads. Also noticed on the striker cam on the bolt body, and the sear surface of the striker.

Sometimes the bolts are the originals which came with the action. Sometimes they are new unserialed replacement LB bolts with just the conversion number stamped on the bolt arm.

The Parker Hale markings could have been applied if the gun was gunsmithed/accurized/bedded at some point by P-H.

Have/had one that was "Fulton's of Bisley" marked on the receiver ring....

Thanks again to all who have helped in the identifcation and especially Bearhunter who with his keen eye spotted the marking. I will take more pictures as requested by Surpmil and post them.

What did these Canadain converted 7.62mm No4's shoot like? If they shoot like our L8's and the T's converted to 7.62mm L8 spec, no wonder they're undervalued.

We have a retired Small Arms School Warrant Officer who was on the trials. He said after the first shoots with them, they packed up after the first morning and sent them all back to the trials branch, suggesting that there had been some mistake. No mistake................

You won't believe this, he's just walked in! Steve Stevens.................

Here's a couple of targets from another forum. The shooter's comments:

"A couple of targets, two different loads shot at different times (100 yards off the bench). I admit, on these occasions I was in good form, doesn't happen often.

You can take these as minute of internet if you choose or as a honest representation of what the DCRA is capable of. I can scan a truck load of less-than-stellar targets of the same rifle, but the cause for poor accuracy will always be the same; ME."

I think if there was an accuracy problem the DCRA shooters would have noticed, and of course Canadian Arsenals obviously did their own testing and found them satisfactory.

I just asked a friend who should know and he thought the barrels were 1:12 twist. They shot issued IVI 7.62mm ammo, which he said had bullets 1 thou under commercial ammo. They shot even better with commercial bullets, and better still on a front locking action. (I didn't ask what ranges for the front locking action, but I assume up to 600m or so, when the "compensation" advantage of the No4 starts to show - most shooting was done up to 600m after all)

If there was an issue with accuracy the ammo would be the first suspect I assume. What did they use Peter?

I haven't got a clue about the ammo but if the trials that I have been involved in recently are anything to go by (7.62mm 6 barrel Dillon minigun) then it's was all within a few weeks old

Well DCRA #1 has found a new home, and the new owner I think treasures it more than I did and that is hard to believe. I know the new owner will enjoy it and I feel very good about that.