Adjustable rear sights

Talked with another WW2 vet today. He was a Marine in the Pacific. His first battle was Feb 1944 at the Enewetok Atoll islands. He said his issued carbine was one with the adjustable rear sights. My dad was also at this battle and he too said his carbine was issued with adjustable rear sights. I know the books say this is too early but one of these two men was my dad. I know that he knew what type sight was on his carbine....now I have another man that was there and he is saying his carbine had the early adjustable sight too.No matter what the books say I will always believe some of the carbines back then were issued with the adjustable rear sight.I think I will believe the people that were there over the books.

Wouldn't be the first time the "book" was wrong.

No disrespect here 6th but it would not be the first time an 85 year old was wrong either. My dad was in WWII Army Air Corps and swears to God he never wore leggings or a dough boy tin hat. Even when I showed him a photo of him in 1942 wearing leggings and a dough boy tin hat. He could remember the eight digit USA number on the hood of his jeep up to the day he died though!

February, 1944 was too early for adjustable sights.

The March 1944 TM shows the Type II sight, and refers to it as the current issue, and that the flip sights were older sights. It is not just one picture, but a couple pages.

I'm a firm believer that nothing is 100% , their is always room for error/change.

Its getting harder to find the old vets that were in the Enewetok battle but there are two now that say they were issued the adjustable rear sight on their carbins right before Feb of 1944. I don't care what the books say I am sticking to what these two told me. I just wonder how many carbines in the late January and very early Feb of 1944 serial range that had the adjustable rear sights were replaced by collectors to "make them as the books say". and by the way when I find one in the serial range with the adjustable rear sight I'm buying it.

Yep adjustable for two ranges, 150 yards and 300 yards.

Yep and dad said they sighted theirs in at 200 yards

Fortunately there were pictures and film taken of most all major actions, so possibly there would be a way to tell for sure, although there's not really any doubt that it was too early.

"The US Army in WW2" "Seizure of the Gilberts and Marshalls" These are genuine Army volumes with specific photos of the operations. I see a few carbines being used by Marines and Army personnel. No bayonet lugs and no adjustable sights indicated. This book covers the taking of Makin, Eniwetok, Kwajalein, Tarawa (Betio) and lesser islands. Later operations such as Iwo Jima, appear to show a much larger percentage of carbines.

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Originally Posted by 6th Marine Div

Yep and dad said they sighted theirs in at 200 yards

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Did they flip the "L" shaped leaf half way between 150 and 300 yards? The only adjustment on carbines that early was the flip sight that when flipped was either 150 or 300 yards.

believe the books if you want.... I believe the vets. They used them and were there. All of them can't be labled as "just cant remember".

No problem. Enjoy the site. There is a lot of really good information here with some of the most knowledgeable folks known in the gun collecting world.

Buy some books, join the Carbine Club, find out who those in the know are and when asking a question be open to the right answers.

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Originally Posted by 6th Marine Div

believe the books if you want.... I believe the vets. They used them and were there. All of them can't be labled as "just cant remember".

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Do we believe the ones that said they had a Singer Carbine or Remington Garand as well? Do we selectively believe what we want or do we believe what we can prove to be true through documentation?

Would want to closely examine a supposed original carbine from that era that had adjustable sights. In particular would want to see if it was originally staked for a flip sight and had the adjustable added later which is most likely the case. I have owned an otherwise original IBM carbine from late 1943 that was clearly staked for the flip sight and later, at some point the flip was removed and the adjustable added. The adj. relied solely on a tight compression fit as there was no additional staking. Obviously, the two sights were staked using different methods when installed from the factory.

My Winchester 5.6 has a factory fitted Hemphill stamped sight and it is neatly punched to secure the sight to the receiver. No stake marks just punch marks in the little cutouts made for the purpose. I would not want to go into a serious gunfight with a sight that was just shoved in there. The punch mark is at the bottom of the left rail. I can provide more close up photos if you want.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...01/sight-1.jpg

in the South Pacific in the Marine Corps. He told me that he shot a Japanese six times with a carbine before he finally went down. This was on Guadalcanal. He obviously had his islands mixed up since he would have had a Reising, 03, BAR or maybe a stolen Army Garand, no carbines yet. I might not be surprised if an adjustable sight showed up on Iwo Jima or Okinawa, but in 1943 in the Gilberts/Marshalls would be a real stretch. These guys aren't lying or even stretching the truth, they just get the time and place mixed up, God bless them.

My 100 YO father, remembers what he thinks he remembers. I know it's not all correct because I was there for some of it.
I don't challenge him or any of his few remaining friends on any of it and I'd suggest that the best thing to do is just let them keep their memories as they are. No need to cause them consternation or further confusion.

Give the guys their memories as they are. We owe it to them.

At least you got them to talk about it..My Dad passed and just left me photo albums, paper work and so forth. Lucky for me I ran into one of the guys in his unit on the internet that filled in many blanks. Now they are all gone.
I know one thing, things moved "real fast" for them.
Most did not think they would make it out alive, collecting carbines just was not on their minds..
I have a 7th AF book that was assembled in the 50s from WWII photos.
They have some carbines and garands I'll try to scan a few.

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

My Winchester 5.6 has a factory fitted Hemphill stamped sight and it is neatly punched to secure the sight to the receiver. No stake marks just punch marks in the little cutouts made for the purpose. I would not want to go into a serious gunfight with a sight that was just shoved in there. The punch mark is at the bottom of the left rail. I can provide more close up photos if you want.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...01/sight-1.jpg

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Hey Dave, I am referring to stake and punch mark as one in the same and is exactly my point. If you previously had a flip sight most likely there would have been some evidence of that with the different type of staking present. Usually these are hash marks, although I have seen original flip sights staked using a small round punch. The key here is the staking will be in different locations. The punch marks for an adjustable sight done at the factory are usually larger as well. The IBM example I am referring to above was most likely a field replacement adj. sight and was not staked with the typical round punch marks done by the factory.

dbarn,
For what it's worth, I had a late Inland that had two neatly placed round punch marks. By it's almost new condition, I'm almost sure it never left the States, and I'm sure it never saw any combat. I don't think any of these late carbines made it to WWII in time to see combat, but it's just my opinion.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1024x768-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1024x768-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1024x768-1.jpg

Very nice example Harlan. If I were to take a carbine into battle, it would be one of the late examples with all of the upgrades or even a nice rebuild. The factory installed adjustable sight was staked more neatly than some of the bomb crater punch marks of the rebuilds. Regarding original flip sighted carbines, I've shot some that their sights were nicely regulated and others that were not, though OK for close in combat accuracy. No question the adjustable was more desirable from a user standpoint, and many flips were replaced in the field depending on availability. The M1 Garand however, has the best adjustable sight ever designed IMHO.

Just to show my ignorance...since neither of the books I have on carbines gives a time frame [they give production dates of when the sights began to be put on production models]...does anyone know when the first adjustable sights began appearing in either the ETO or PTO?

Thanks in advance.

My Dad had a transitional Inland (Type II band and Type II sight) on Iwo Jima in early 1945. I have also seen pics of Okinawa and Iwo after the invasion with Type III bands).