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Does any one have any info on the Legal status of the L59A1 DP rifle in the UK, I have the opputunity to aquire one for the collection through a friend who is a RFD.
We are trying to determine if they are a Section 1 Firearm or not, as there appears to be some confusion surrounding these, a bit like the skeleton actions.
TIA
They are not, nor ever ever will be, capable of discharging a shot bullet or other like missile. The whole project was designed around that fact and that the rifle was so modified that its structure was totally incapable of withstanding the shock, load or pressure of discharge. It was also so designed that it was impossible to utilise component parts in another or the insertion of serviceable parts into the weapon
Does that answer the question
The trouble is, there does not seem to be any formal system in UK of disseminating to interested parties (shooters, Police, RFDs, etc) rulings or definitions that have emanated from the Proof Houses, Courts - or Warminster! The Home Office is very careful not to issue any "guidance" that might soften firearms control in their eyes.
AFAIK, it is still down to individual Police Forces to make up their own minds about L59s/ skeleton actions/ grenade cups/ etc. If one Force have bothered to seek expert opinion, thats not going to stop another (anti gun ownership) Force trying it on. I think most Police Farces will still demand that L59s & skeleton actions are formally de-activated. Common sense does not come into it - lets not forget its a 5 year mandatory prison sentence if they manage to make a prosecution for "possession" stick. I wouldn't try and hold an off-ticket L59 in somewhere like Kent, for example.....
I agree with Thunderbox.
An L59 will not have been de-activated in "a manner approved by the Secretary of State for rendering it incapable of discharging any shot, bullet or other missile." as required by the 1988 Act. Nor will it have been through either of the two proof houses and so cannot benefit from the phrase: "it shall be presumed, unless the contrary is shown, that a firearm has been rendered incapable of discharging any shot, bullet or other missile, and has consequently ceased to be a firearm within the meaning of those Acts."
So it cannot legally be a "De-activated Firearm", within the meaning of the Act unless and until it has been though the two processes. It is a Statutory requirement under the Act - no ifs, buts or maybes.
So Section 58? Section 58 specifically relates to antiques. Is an L59 an antique? For example, to benefit from Section 58 HO guidance for Muzzle Loading Firearms is that they have to be pre-WWII or they are Section One/Two. (However, that is HO guidance - not Statute Law.)
So you pays your money and takes your chance.
So the answer appears to be ask the local police force and see what they make up, based on their own opinions? I am so glad that I am living in a gun-friendly (for now) state in the US.
I should start a rescue service for Lee Enfields, seeming that the government is hell-bent on destroying a part of our national history. What is the next step? Closing the Royal Amoury in Leeds and other museums so people can't even LOOK at guns????
Please pardon my rant. I left England before the recent major firearm clamp-downs happened, and I am stunned at the lengths the government and police forces are going to to prevent firearm ownership.
No. The answer is do not ask the local Police and risk bringing things to a head.Quote:
Originally Posted by spinecracker
A case of an L59 would never get to court if you took advice. A very similar case of an L60 (a DP L1A1) was discontinued after advice from all concerned including the MoD. And was returned to the owner even though it never had a deact cert. The official DP's are neutered to well BEYOND the spec of deactivation.
Likewise, L54 DP Brens were on sale in the early 80's, even before there was such a thing as a deact spec.
But just make sure that they are REAL L series DP's and not some imaginary home made idea of a DP
And European spec deacts are also lawful too. To say not is a breach of European free trade!
They will almost certainly refuse to give an on-the-record opinion, before the fact. And even then you are not entitled to rely on it. You can only find out their attitude ex post facto, in which case you'll have to be prosecuted, convicted by the bench, and then appeal it successfully.Quote:
So the answer appears to be ask the local police force and see what they make up, based on their own opinions?
There's a simpler way to resolve this.
Someone get a correctly marked and genuine ex UK MoD L59A1 entered on their FAC. Then, when it's due for renewal or before, ask to have it removed from the FAC as, after due consideration and technical advice, it is not a firearm as defined in law. Present the rifle, together with a copy of the UK MoD spec plus a report from, say, the person who drew up the spec in the late 70's together with his qualifications and experience in this particular matter/field. That person may well be invited to present your case in a robust and technical way for the price of his lunch and mileage
They might huff and puff a bit but after learning that another Force have allowed such a beast, they'll remove it.
There, that's food for thought isn't it. I have had TWO such beasts removed from my FAC in the past. Remember the phrase. Where there's a will, there's a simple way
The trouble is, we the shooting community would have to go through this procedure fifty-one times - ie once for each Police Force. Even then, there is no guarantee that a Police Force would allow the same transaction twice in a row - they habitually move the goalposts from shooter to shooter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
The problem with being sure it would "never make it to court" is that the damage is done long before it ever comes near a court: ie you may have been arrested, held, put on the DNA database, had your guns and ammo removed (by force, if they can't find your keys) and probably damaged, and your name & details put onto x number of databases....
You know Peter, you really are cheap!!
I've got a L1A1, a M1 carbine and a Enfield No.4, all deactivated before 1988 (1986,1986 and 1987), obviously these arn't covered by the 1988 act so technically arn't deactivated (even though they have 'Modified' proof certs).
So, if I ever need your help, I'll have a sandwhich waiting here for you!
Sorry, my comment was supposed to be sarcasm - I must be losing my skill - been away from England too long lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Beerhunter
This only relates to UK Forumers.............
Maybe the HBSA and the LERA ought to get their heads together on this. knowing the status and importance of the L59 Drill Rifle (ALWAYS refer to it as such from now on.....) in the history of the Lee Enfield, they shoud approach the Home Office with all the facts, figures, statements, drawings etc etc to get a binding opinion.
This way, any decision is taken out of the hands or whim of an area Chief Constable and without going through the magisterial legal process, get it clariified once and for all. It needn't cost a penny if you ignore your time and effort.
What's keeping you?
Good idea, and why not get "two for the price of one", and get a ruling on these as well ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tonRifle-1.jpg
Obviously (well to anyone who knows guns) it is incapable of firing, but it doesnt have a deact certificate, so I guess its still section 1
I'd certainly write up the technical paper for whoever opted to put the matter forward. I'd include the skeletonized too
Peter, I am up for taking this forward to get clarification one way or the other.
I'll do my bit. So what I suggest is a member report up the chain of command to HBSA, then HBSA (or vice verca) get the LERA to join forces, get the info collated and I'll submit our technical docs and report and specimen product (or photos of) and off it goes
Now let's not have any more defeatist talk...................
Sorry, can't agree. I habitually used to fire blanks at school from one. (I never had the guts to try live but I reckon that it would as a minimum cope with a reduced load.) I simply substituted a 'service rifle' bolt for the skeletonised one. I know from meeting other ex CCF and ACF Cadets over the years, I was not alone. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield
BTW. HBSA policy has always been anti-deact, especially for firearms that are available under Section 1 and Section 7, and so when we take up the case of the L59 Drill Rifle we need to be careful to assure others in HBSA that this is a one-off for a piece of history that has already been 'converted'.
You won't get binding opinions out of the HO, you will get 'guidance', which the police can ignore, or hide behind, as it suits their purpose. It's bound up with the supposed 'independence' of Chief Constables (though that's largely a legal fiction).
I have pushed it up through the HBSA to see if they would support this, with the offer to do any donkey work required.
You don't need to agree Beerhunter......... A skeletonised already been through the magistrates court and deemed to be not a firearm as defined. But a magistrates court decision is not the last word. But it carries great weight. Much like Home Office Guidance.
Let's not have any more defeatist talk........... If you own either, 'lawfully' or otherwise .....depending on your point of view, you can be an optomist or a pessimist
If you are referring to the L59, then the bolt head is solid with no hole for the firing pin. The Catch Bolt Locking is fixed (presumed welded) in such a way as to prevent removal of the bolt assembly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerhunter
However. For the record, I have an L59 which is still on the RFDs holding. I'm just waiting for the war to start with the HO.
The Proof House do not have an option but to not give it a Deact Cert. The claim they must follow the HO guidelines, but appreciate the stupidity of the present position with the L59.
The HO have no interest in a common sense attitude. They enjoy prevaricating and that, mixed with control freakery, means they have to be forced into submission.
The standard L59 bolt is fully removeable EFL. There is a pin in the boltway that brevents a servce bolt head from passing a certain point.
This is going to be the problem I fear because so many 'owners' have different ideas about exactlky what an L59 is. There is even a chromed one out there!!!!!! But it's not an L59!
1. No I am not. I was referring to a post about the No4 Skeletons. In my opinion the two (Skeleton and L59) should not be bundled together in these discussions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfieldlock
2. I agree with the Proof House - sadly. In my opinion, the Proof House's claim is valid because that is what is laid down in the Statute. To enable an L59 to be considered deactivated the Home Office Guidelines need to be changed. I posted the two factors in the Statute for a firearms to be considered deactivated and that they comply with the Home Office Guidelines is one of them. That is where (the HO) the pressure needs to be applied.
BTW as soon as this is sorted, I want one. I have never wanted one until now. Currently I wouldn't mind just seeing one.
Was a Skeleton ever a firearm? Was it ever in a state to fire a projectile?
If it was made with parts that are slightly different to the original and will not work. A child's toy is made with parts that will not allow it to fire a projectile but it still looks like a firearm.
If not it was never a firearm it cannot be deactivated.
The only time that an item such as a toy or a banana is treated as a firearm is when it is used in a crime and the victim perceives the item to be an offensive weapon and the offender is charged as if it was a real firearm.
I think you need to start at the beginning.
What is it ? a fire arm yes or no.
Was it ever a firearm?* yes or no.
What was it designed as / for?
Can it ever be converted into a firearm using its load bearing / restricted parts (if any) ?
When was it made. Age is important as it may fall into different legal definitions.
In all my police experience you must start at the beginning to prove what it is, and what it is NOT.
this list could get much longer.
Also the police use the forensic lab at Huntington to examine firearms / air guns for their expert opinion if something is a firearm or not, or to say what it is or not. I have visited the firearms store room there when I use to take DNA evidence there in the late 90s, there were plenty of guns waiting examination.
So gather the expert evidence to say what it is and is not.
The police also use the experts at the Imperial war museum, The tower of London etc etc. The experts are out there so find them..
How was the obsolete caliber list and firearms drawn up?
With the use and input of experts.
just my thoughts.
You're not that far from Sussex, you can come and see mine whenever.......Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerhunter
We have lots of other nice Enfields as well :super:
One of the major factors when considering the L59 is that it will chamber a round. it was designed to chamber a drill round for demonstration/teaching purposes.
However, in it's designed state, it could never discharge the a live round neither could a projectile leave the barrel.
In answer to READ6737. So many questions, so little time...... They are all relevant and many can be very simply answered. And I agree, that the onus of proof is upon the prosecution. But the fact is that the L59 was converted from a service rifle as a General Staff Requirement in the 70's. Advice WAS taken from Huntingdon by the person who drew up the spec and had it approved. Furthermore, the authorised L54 DP Bren version of the rifle was openly on sale as a deact, even before deacts were invented!
It is '....so structurally altered as to be wholly incapable of supporting the shock or load of discharge'.
All it takes now is a report from an august body to the HO, backed up with facts and if necessary............. I could go on.....
This may appear to be somewhat at a tangent to the subject of this thread but I think it shows the problems the UK gun-owners can have with the Police.
I'm sure many of you will know the story of Mick Shepherd.
The Met Police raided Mick's Guns and siezed all his section 58 (Antique guns of obsolete calibre )weapons for which a licence is not needed.
They insisted they were section 5 (banned weapons)
After 10 months in custody and a court case Mick was released as 'an innocent man without a stain to his name'.
Despite the Judges ruling, two and a half years later the weapons and personal possessions have not been returned.
This is the anti-gun status of the UK
http://www.micksguns.com/
This anti gun status is one reason I left the uk.
When I stop shooting and I do not renew my shooting permit I will still have all my firearms including my 4T. 98 mausers and all in shooting condition.
I suspect we've not the last of the fall-out from the Shepherd case. They hated losing that one (indeed the BBC accidentally put out the pre-prepared report of his conviction, together with a quote from the detective in charge about what a good result it was) and I think the law on s.58 antiques will change to make what he was doing illegal again.
I have tried to find out exactly was he was doing by trawling through the press reports - and failed. Do you know what the disagreement was between him and the Met? I assumed that it was Section 58 and have further assumed that is was based on the word antique? But some meat around my surmise would be nice - links?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mk VII
Found not guilty and still hasn't got his property back! What on earth are his legal team playing at? What about an approach to the Judge in Chambers or a complaint of neglect of duty against the Chief Constable. That'd get things moving..... or......... there are plenty of avenues
Can someone answer my probably nieve question please ?
If they are considered a firearm can you have one put on an open slot on your ticket ?
Would they pass proof ?
If not surely option 1 doesn't apply ?
If this is the case what is there classification ?
Cheers
KG. A real UK MoD spec L59A1 neither would nor could ever pass proof. It is totally inert. Next time you are passing, pop in and I'll show you a few. I think that a few owners of such beasts have an old ex CCF No4-DP this is 'slightly' DP and not UK MoDspec L59 DP and marked DRILL RIFLE L59A1. No offence, but I was even told of a chrome one! Chrome it might be, but an L59, it ain't.
There was also an RAF DP No4. But the less said about those the better
Is anyone out there interested in seeing the whole thing in pictures?
It is an offence to sell an unproofed firearm. Anyone selling an L59 as a Section 1 Firearm would, in my opinion, be guilty of an offence because it would not be proofed for the reason that it could not pass proof. However no Proof doesn't mean that it ceases to be a Firearm. 'Out of proof' firearms turn up all the time and the Police take the view (backed up by the courts) that proofed or unproofed they are still firearms. For example a Webley MkVI with only military proofs may not be sold but is a still a firearm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev G
If an L59 was offered for Proof, the Proof House MAY issue a Certificate stating that the was "The arm is an Antique or collectors piece, which is not intended to be fired, is unlikely to withstand the proof test and might be severely damaged if subjected to proof." I quote from such a certificate.
Some have claimed that such a certificate unquestionably puts the firearm in question into Section 58.
So someone needs to put an L59 forward for proof, get the Certificate and then convince ACPO and/or the courts.
"Pictures" would be a great idea at this stage especially of the modifications which make a legitimate L95A1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I believe the gears are in motion within the HBSA to hopefully take this forward.
I agree that in that case it would be necessary to get a Proof Exemption Certificate - if they would issue one.
Peter Laidler's article on the L59 has convinced me that although not to the HO Approved Deactivation specification (and so cannot, in Law, benefit from that), the rifle would be incapable of being fired. I would be more than happy to buy one - if I could find one - and take on the 'authorities' over whether or not it constituted a Firearm under the Act.
I would to submit it to one of the Proof Houses for them to issue a Certificate stating that it was "an antique or collectors piece" etc.
I would keep it as a "curiosity or ornament" (1968 Firearms Act - as amended) to remind me of my time in the Cadets (Army Section of course). (Although to be fair we didn't have any DP rifles and the L59 was way after my time.)
You know it is sad to think of all the hassles honest gun owners go thru from legistlation that really never solves any problems with firearms. I do feel sorry for owners in England that have a passion for collecting and probably the only "brush" with the law has been a motor vehicle speeding infraction. Here in Canada we have spent about 2 Billion dollars on gun registration and only approximately 2% of registerd firearms have been involved in crime. Our legislation came from a Liberal Gov't years ago and I remember them telling us it would cost around 20 million dollars, well that is a long way from 2 Billion. The real scary part is when they physically moved the office of the CFC they lost approx. 450 thousand registrations. I remember meeting someone years ago who had according to the CFC no guns registered. He showed me his registration certificates and he had several legit registered guns. I guess he was one of the ones that had all their information "lost". The next problem is the lack of knowledge by many police officers about the Firearms Act, this is a problem of hiring the wrong people and hiring people that have never been associated with firarms. Many police officers couldn't identify a CZ858 from a AK 47, they look alike so they think they are the same gun. I am told when the latest gun laws were being drafted they put a group of people in a room and they looked at pictures of firearms and if they looked too dangerous they made them prohibited. Since the Conservatives have been in power in Canada they have made it much easier to "live with" the Firearms Act and hopefully we will see the end of the long gun registration soon. I write this after reading that a "dewat" gun in England may not be a dewat in the eyes of the police, to think a wonderful piece of history could be destroyed for no real reason. I do feel sorry for all of you in England with your unreasonable gun laws, I do remember many years ago owning a handbill (poster) from WW 2 asking Canadians to donate a gun to defend a British home. Ironic isn't it, you were on the verge of being invaded and didn't have guns to defend your homeland and had to come begging for Canadians to help you and we sent you Thousands of firearms. The firearms laws of the 40's must seem now to be reasonable, who knows maybe someday due to your current laws you will be asking for help again.
There will be a few hundred Enfield owners and collectors sighing and agreeing with you 303t. It's important that some of these little 'non-guns' survive but nobody seems to know what they are. Well, we do.....non-guns, but there isn't a classification on a licence for non guns.
It would take a registered dealer to get one up to the proof house, get it 'not capable of being proofed', get a statement of its condition from a totally independent graduate engineer - preferably someone involved in the original programme, together with the original drawings, THEN sell it on to a collectot.
Then and IF the muck hit the proverbial fan, let them take you on. They very probably wouldn't bother but if they were so foolhardy as to do so they'd loose of course, THEN ask for total costs against them for being so foolhardy
point of interest, I just found this last night:
http://www.rifleman.org.uk/L59A1_and_A2_DP_Rifles.htm
about half way down the page it references an L60A1 found in private hands in the UK by the police, who questioning its status as a firearm...
"The matter was referred back to the UK MoD...... The decision was made that while the ‘rifle’ did not have a deactivation certificate, it remained inert and, even though it was capable of feeding and loading a drill-round.....
it was deemed to be deactivated to beyond the Home Office required standard and was returned to the owner."
Thought it might be of interest.
BTW, anyone know the status of an L59A1 in the USA? Just wondering if the BATFE classifies it as a firearm or not...... In other words, do you need an FFL for a transfer?
I am amazed at the hurdles some of you must jump over just to acquire a piece of history. I ordered another L59A1 this week, and below was the process:
I ordered the rifle on Tuesday, called the company and gave them my credit card info, faxed them my C&R, they shipped it Wednesday, and UPS is delivering it today.
No intent to rub it in, just amazed at the different laws in diffrent countries. It's a shame it isn't this easy for all of us!!
You won't get total costs now, only legal aid minimum rate.
Sorry to reserect this thread but has the status been challenged or any progress been made since the last post ?
ATB KG
If you mean has the law been changed, the answer is no and so the L59 continues not to be within the specification of a deactivated firearm laid down by the 1968 Firearms Act (as Amended). That is to say each and every L59 is therefore still liable to challenge and has to be defended in its own right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev G
Get one KG then have it examined by someone who's competent to do so, then take it AND the examination certificate to the proof house who will agree with what's been said 100% and issue you with a letter to that effect BUT that they can't certify that it's deacted to the HO spec but that it is totally incapable of blah blah blah AND that the specification actually exceeds the laid down spec...........
Then take the paperwork to your local plod and request that in the light of the proof house opinion and the the UK MoD fact (we only deal in facts your honour......) they remove it from your FAC.
The problem as I've heard is that there are some 'L59's' that are simply purporting and dressed-up to be L59's. But unless they conform to the last EMER, they ain't. This thread isn't going to die. But the answer is simplicity itself
As the great Mr Kalashnikov told an Engineers Conference. '............it's easy to make things complicated. The difficulty is making complicated things easy'. I wish I'd invented a) that saying and b) his rifle
Peter I was thinking more in the line of an L54 so will start in new thread in the Bren forum.
Just interested to find out if anyone had taken up the challenge and if so how they had fared ?
ATB KG
Same law for a Bren, just different rules. For example, to benefit from the Act, the Barrel Group must be welded to the Body Group. If it is not then the Proof House can't pass it as deactivated and so it has to take its chance in court.
The irony of the Bren DP saga (only real, MoD spec L54/5's of course) is that they were actually being sold as deactivated, off certificate during the 80's BEFORE there was even such a category as 'deactivated', for the princely sun of £57 or so. This was on the basis that they were not firearms as defined and as such, exempt from the act. Mind you, when you could buy the real McCoy as a single shot firearm or a smooth bored shotgun for the same, then quite understandably, Mr Pannell didn't sell many!
I saw one recently that had been purchased as an L54 DP Bren prior to the 'ban' and subsequently re-submitted for certification. Just the barrel welded in and it passed. But was there even a need for it to have been re-submitted on the basis that the law isn't retrospective?
Not in my opinion, that is to say, providing the owner was ready to fight, in court, any constabulary that said that he/she was is possession of a Section Five firearm or parts thereof.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I remember in the pre-1988 Firearms Amendment Act that some constabularies did not like Deacts and took every opportunity to prosecute.
Just to muddy the waters but would appreciate any comments or opinion on the status of 'relics' if that is the correct classification for ground dug rusty/damaged weapons ?
As part of my collection I would like to bring back from France a Dunkirk Bren or SMLE that has been dug up.
How rusty or damaged does it have to be before it is considered a relic and isn't considered a firearm ?
ATB KG
This is quite a dangerous grey area of the law.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev G
Many people buy or own "relic" condition firearms but, AFAIK, there is no actual legal definition of "relic" or "non firing condition". All relics remain Section 1 or section 5 unless they are physically de-activated to the current specification. People tend to escape prosecution because the police are generally ignorant about just how "viable" many apparent relics can be. A barrel remains a barrel, no matter how rusty or bent; a barrelled receiver can be made to shoot by anyone with sufficient skill and materials. Even relic ammunition often retains a perfectly viable propellant charge if the case is sealed.
Someone brought a corroded lump of an SMLE relic action to me, to see if could be tarted up to be mounted on a board. After soaking in kerosene and applying a blow-torch and a wire brush on a power drill, the bolt freed up and the receiver cleaned up to the point that the pins and screws could be removed. The barrel (front 6" missing) wire-brushed out to reveal rifling. Although the action was badly pitted (and possible a bit distorted), it was clear that by substituting the (non-controlled in UK) small parts, you'd end up with a functioning firearm. That relic did go to be de-activated.....
(As a lad in Africa, I remember the Police and Game wardens burning a stack of seized rifles - mostly Lee Enfields. The fire was intense, and all that was left was a mass of twisted barrelled actions. Nevertheless, this scrap was promptly stolen, and the rifles were straightened out and re-used by poachers....)
In the great scheme of things, it is very simple. The Crown have got to prove to the satisfaction of the Court that what you possess is a firearm, as defined, capable of discharging a shot, bullet or other like missile or parts etc etc - beyond all reasonable doubt. The fact that you can possess a deact has, according to a case at Winchester Crown Court (regarding a bayonet collection and flash eliminators) opened the door to lawful possession of all(?) of the non pressure or load bearing parts contained within a firearm.
If, what you own isn't capable of discharging etc etc etc and.... then you're home and dry. But if it can be made to, in the opinion of the person who examined it, then you're in the mire.
A case involving a totally off-licence and pre deactivated, welded up MG42 fixed to an Africa Corps replica motorbike and side car was thrown out of court on the basis that it wasn't capable of discharging and could nbever, ever be made to do so in the opinion of the examiner.
But every case must be examined on its merits. A pistol dug up from a wartime slit trench, lost by an officer in 1944 - er sorry.......... lost by his batman of course.............. was left in a waste engine oil tank for a year and fired 12 rounds faultlessly after being washed down
Incidentally, fire rarely destroys a firearm by melting and distortion as generally speaking you don't get those high temps. What it does is destroy the metallurgy of the springs and hardness of the steel.
added later after a discussion.......... but it might still be fireable, even if it's only once!