Good discussion going on concerning parkerize finish color on the "other" forum. Hope I am not in violation of rules here.
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Good discussion going on concerning parkerize finish color on the "other" forum. Hope I am not in violation of rules here.
Billy,
Where does the green color come from?
A long drawn out battle.
Thoughts of old cosmo turning parts green just doesn't fly. It doesn't explain why parts just opened from years in storage don't have the green tint.
M or Z type Phosphate finishes are a chemical reaction the end result being a rust preventative surface oxidized to clean raw steel. Still used today as a raw metal sealer for primer and paints to be applied over.
I believe the use of Zinc Chromate Green in a liquid form was used as the after park rinse.
This system was already in use by the DOD on aircraft.
Here's some more info about it,
Everything You Need To Know About Zinc Chromate
After reading this, you could see how playing with the tint would explain the numbers of colors we see on the carbines of today.
Just my thoughts,
Charlie-painter777
Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
Charlie, I was trying to learn something when it became a little difficult when there is a difference of opinions among those posting on the topic. Your input is greatly appreciated and helps me to decide what to believe. I am happy not have any rust on mine. The other colors seem to change depending on light exposure. I will have to admit my Rock-Ola and one of the Winchesters seem to have a greenest tint. Also, I think you know I had Dean re-park one of mine and it has a dark grey finish.
Without the jargon of chemicals, we were able to use Oxinate 84 from Brownells to obtain grey. Just a new clean solution was all that we needed. To get it pure black we added fine steel wool to the tank. Sometimes railway spikes too. I still don't see any of the weapons in that thread I would call green.
I got a stupid question.....
Why don't someone just mix a few batches of different park up using different chemicals and actually TRY to duplicated it instead of talking about it so much. With all the debate over all milsurp collectors (not just carbine) I am surprised that someone with some spare time, energy (and cash) hasn't dubplicated it before now. If they can not duplicate it, each try serves as to eliminate a possible source of the green....
Sorry, had a common sense moment in the middle of my all my insanity. I promise it won't happen again....
Those two guys really went after each other on the subject. :bash:
Good thing they weren't in the same room. :help:
Jim, I am also glad that they don't have access to alot of firearms..... :madsmile:Quote:
Originally Posted by JimF4M1s
Sorry, that was too good of a set-up line....
I kind of think there's more than one reason for the 'green' tint, but it sure isn't worth arguing like that about it.
Here's an example for the subject:
This receiver had been in storage for a very long time.
I cleaned it with denatured alcohol and much of the green wiped off. (?)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3A3clean-1.jpg
I think that the DNA may have dried out the metal when it evaporated???? I am curious if it looks green again when you coat it with oil??? Do you recall if there was something on the cloth? If there was, that is the stuff that should be analyzed for content.
Ed,
No, the green tint didn't really return after it was oiled (To my eyes)
and yes, there was residue on the cloth and Q-tips. I think this was just a build-up of old cosmoline. It was kind of like a varnish.
The parked area below was covered with the same dark greenish color before cleaning and oiling.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...119Large-1.jpg
This is before cleaning the parked area -
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...278Large-1.jpg
Had they been in the same room the conversation probably would have been more civil. Least that is my experience with folks.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimF4M1s
Harlan,
Like cleaning dried 2 cycle oil out of your carb.
Charlie
Keep in mind that the final Zinc Chromate wash works as a neutralizing rinse. It's basically topcoating/sealing in the Phosphate Park plus adding to the corrosion resistance. This is a very thin coat.. more or less not measureable thus not affecting any final parts fit.
If the tinted green chromate I spoke of was used, a freshly parked finish could very well take on a green hue, depth of color dependant on the strength of mix and hardness of the surface it was to be applied to.
It's original purpose was adopted for use on sea going vessels and steel bridges near salt water, because of it's corrosion resistance.
Did you know that Zinc Phosphate can be stained or painted?
Did you know that Pressure treated lumber is treated with Zinc Chromate among other chemicals?
When wire brushing, buffing, sand blasting or even solvent cleaning the
degradation of the top coat will expose the underlying phosphate coats color.
A very likely cause of you seeing a change in color.
Other factors to take into account that may or may not enhance or degrade the green color are,
Chemical make up of cleaning solvents, exposure to UV rays, water and temperature or if the item in question ever had the green hue ( Tinted Chromate ) to start with.
Also keep in mind that with the standards of today compared to before 1985 or so, it's very unlikely you'd be able to put the same strength solutions together today.
As far as 'Experimenting' you might want to look over the safety data sheets. On jobs that we spray Zinc Chromate, you have your spacesuit on. In tight or confined areas you have to pull your confined space permits and use the buddy system. Supplied air along with air (levels) monitoring is a must in these conditions. Decontamination showers and blood testing comes with the territory also. Documented proof has to be provided per each mans exposure time and to what levels.
In my opinion, experimenting without the proper research is a deadly game.
Safety link,
Occupational Safety and Health Guideline for Zinc Chromate
JMO,
Charlie-painter777
Hmmmm, there goes the Government getting in the way of gun -lovers again.... Kinda sounds like all those "revenuers" trying to take the 'shine away during Prohibition.... next Washington will be issuing 4 page safety instructions on how to go to the bathroom so that you don't get paper cuts from the toliet paper .....Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
Seriously, its actually very tragic all the harm done out of sheer ignorance to those just trying to support our defense industry... chemicals that were common place in WWI, WWII and Korea are (thankfully) outlawed or controlled today. I would say that Benzine, Asbestos, Lead and Mercury have killed as many men and women in our defense industries over the years as those dying in combat from enemy bullets...
As far as the park chemicals and limits to modern experimenting, what has the surviving old timers who used to do those park-job credit the green tint to?
IMHO, the "green" or "brown" color is due to oxidized oil. Once removed it is easy to restore. You only have to oil the gun and wait 60+ years and it will be back. Seriously, baked-on vegetable oils on cookware can have much the same appearance. The mineral oils used on guns take much longer to oxidize, but they eventually will; remember all the gummed up parts in old firearms? Perhaps some stray linseed oil on the metal parts may be part of the color as well?
Yeah,Quote:
Originally Posted by JimF4M1s
I don't know if I will ever post there again. You have to be very careful of what you say and not make any mistakes or they will rip you apart. Not very friendly...:slap:Here is an example of someone who called a "bullet" a bullet tip.
http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4774
They even started a whole new thread on the subject.Why??? Nothing better to do??:dunno:
http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5066
I may not agree with the poster calling them trolls, but I think they need to grow up a bit.
All that over a guy's Want to Sell Ad?
My first time back there and I sure don't miss any of that name calling and gang banging.
That's why having Moderators that stay involved keeps this site worth coming back to.
Wonder what would happen if a guy called a Magazine a clip?
Beheading? Tar and Feathered ?
Geeeezzzee........................................ ...................
As PBI say's.........
In the Spirit of Collecting
and may I add........
And the Interest in the History.
You might want to watch what you say Charlie. Some of those on there visit both forums and might "turn you in". Then all of a sudden you become a bad guy. :rofl:
Let them play the way they want. When it gets too bad, hopefully their yard monitor will give them a time out or put them in a corner. :nono:
truth be known, i was one of the ones the got it going...
for one reason.
after i said i didnt agree with someones post, they went crazy with it..
and i poked the hornets nest, only to prove a point.. a couple actually.
first,,
that nobody really knows exactly for sure what the green hue is on all zinc phosphate finishes..
and second.. just to show how far some guys will go, just for the sake of argument.
for the record.
im the same here on line, as i am face to face, or in a room..
ask anyone here who has met me.
actually im a bit more friendly on line..lol..
i save the real smack for face to face..much more fun that way.
my take on all these forums.
they area great place for information, and we can all learn so much, and share informantion about something we all enjoy.
unfortunatly some users, like to get snippy, flame, or attack somone that has another view, or calls something the wrong name, spells wrong,
or just doesnt know..
iv been saying for years, that we all need to welcome new users, and welcome them into our little clicks.
when we die, all that info will be gone as well, if we share it, and open our minds, it will live on in the minds and hearts of others.
iv seen so many new users, or users that have a lot to offer to these forums, chased off by bad additudes.
a couple i know have some very large collections of guns we would all be happy to have.
one guy, has some of his guns pictured in all the wonderful books we all read.
most of these forums. M1 Carbine, Garand, Krag, ect have a couple grouchy guys that seem to know a lot about those rifles, for some reason dont like to share..{then why be on a public forum?}
when someone has a different take, want, need, or lack of of knowlage, they seem to go out of the way to make them look bad..
and that guy never comes back...duuuh wonder why..
so, all in all....lets be friendly, make new friends, and share..:}
its ok to not agree with someones opinion on something..
and its ok to no agree with a fact, and show them what you know..
just be nice, and do it with class.
Well, I'll admit it.
I still go to Culver's regularly, but seldom venture far from the "Gun Talk" forum. That forum is still friendly and accepting of diverse views. But it's mostly about "light" politics and news stories.
It stays good-natured and most of the participants seem to be good guys.
(I hope I didn't just poison the water there.)
But once you venture into the specialized forums, you're kinda on your own. Those forums are where you'll find the hard-headed and self-proclaimed "experts" holding their ground. Some very knowledgeable folks are there, but there always seem to be challenges from someone.
Edit:
Well, my slow typing put me in line behind Chuckindenver but he just posted my thoughts very nicely.
chuckindenver,
It wasn't just your green tint thread. Though that was entertaining.
The "tips" guy got hammered.
Someone comes to his defense and tries to get a dig back calling them trolls. Then he get's: Ah these two gentlemen are very respected members of the OFC and this forum, you on the other hand are not! Nay I suggest you get a bit dry behind the ears before you attempt to ridicule these gentlemen?
Next: Once again we have someone who has no profile and no history coming on and making derogatory remarks. Shape up friend or we hit the ejection seat button!
Then he gets backed up:
Go ahead and do it anyway Bob! This "person" is of no use to us, and certainly of no use to mankind!
It goes on and on:
Ken, forget this fool for he has no idea of what he speaks! I believe he is an abused only child democRAT that voted for obama (same mentality, no?)
The worst part of it is that he wouldn't make a decent pimple on a real troll's a$$.
Then they start swearing:
Where do these little jackasses come from? Is this the result of allowing elementary school students access to computers? "Get a life Troll"? Somebody please spank the little bast@rd and send him to bed without supper.
Some of these comments are from pretty active members. I might check every once in a while to see if a topic is listed I might learn from. But these guys getting mean.
It's their forum, let them do what they want. I've wasted enough of my time trying to figure it out. Experts in their own minds. No matter how smart, or how much you think you know,....there is always someone who knows more. Just the way it is.
Enough from me on this topic. :surrender:
banter like that has no place on these forums..
i learned long ago, to get my point accross without swearing or name calling.
its called growing up.
and i think that the person i was going back and forth with is an asset to these forums, just needs to take a second, and smile...
Is it possible these people have more than one identity on line? That has been done before to stir things up and stoke the fire. That way one can cause a lot of trouble without really insulting anyone? I found the whole arguement useless myself. I do have an M1 here with a green receiver. I don't even care what caused it.
Just a personal opinion.
I have been around various firearms forum boards since the started in the late 90s. That was mostly Cowboy Action Shooting and Civil War re-enacting (my main interests then), but also Gunchat.net and some black rifle boards later.
I had joined the old CSP Jouster carbine forum around three years ago. Even though I had been a carbine owner/user/ appreciator for almost 30 years, I became interested in knowing more about them. I was active, but mostly tried to learn by reading posts. Life got in the way, and I drifted away for awhile, and when I came back, I was redirected here. I enjoy this carbine board much more than I did the CSP. I have rejoined CSP since it re-opened but don't spend much time there.
I prefer this board, as it is friendly, patient, civil, and polite. The moderators and main contributors are TRUE experts. Those of you that are truly knowledgeable do not mind sharing knowledge with "knotheads" like me that do not know, but do want to.
Being an executive member on another forum (dealing with AKs and Siaga rifles-my real world knowledge and experience base is on more modern tactical weapons), I know how frustrating it is for you to have new people ask the same questions over and over again. I appreciate your patience here, it is amazing.
Brian, Bill, Dave, Charlie, Mr Ricca, and all you guys (too many to name off the top of my head), please keep up the great work and thanks.
Yes, they can .... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
To guard against it, requires the addition of several layers of add-ons to the off-the-shelf version of vBulletin used by the new Jouster forums. As a result, they are still exposed to similar problems they had originally with the old software that collapsed, although vBulletin is an improvement overall. There's really no way of telling whether the discussion described is the result of electronic multiple personality disorder, or simply two anonymous Internet egos going at it. :lol: The latter simply requires effective "fair, firm and friendly" moderation in a timely fashion, which when done properly, most people get the message and if they don't, they usually get banned or go elsewhere voluntarily. ;)
When we handled the interim hosting here and people started moving over to the temporary forum, we originally caught dozens of CSP members who had been using two and sometimes three user names. Apparently it was for no other reason then to personally attack other members, or start arguments by posting to themselves (their alter egos) to create controversy and start flame wars for sport. We got rid of them all (banned) and from time to time we do continue to see this kind of attempted registration get caught in our specialized software traps, which detect 90% of these multiple user name (same person) registrations. :thup:
Regards,
Badger
I study these forums extensively for info on the WW2(mostly) collectibles. I memorize the info on M1 rifles. I have a couple of hundred posts here which is little compared to many of you. There's a good reason I only have fourteen or so over there. Many of the online forums compare to children screaming in the darkness at each other. Mostly the Youtube types. and some others come to mind. Not this one.
Badger, you mean that I can't can register with multiple names even if I have a note from a psychiatrist certifying that I have multiple personalities???? Geez, then how am I support to post the correct information to myself when I have the wrong information?
Remember, its ok to talk to yourself as long as you don't lose your own arguements!
Seriously, this is a MUCH nicer place to post, ask questions and LEARN... and I honestly appreciate the support and tolerance that all you old farts have shown me over the past few months. Thank you all!
Now, that made my otherwise crappy day that I just had at work ... :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired Retired
Thanks ... :thup:
Regards,
Doug (Badger)
The behavior on that board was why I allowed life to get in the way and drift away, even though I generally stayed up on other forums. MANY times some new poster would disappear after being scolded like a child, etc. On several occasions I stuck my neck out with a conciliatory "why can't we all just get along" posts, but got a few nasty jabs at me for "not minding my own business.":yikes:
Thankfully,
That thread died after a post on the 21st.
I really hate those flame threads. They just kinda take the fun out of it all. Don't they?........
And as imarangemaster posted, the "why can't we all just get along" comments just seem to draw fire.
Kinda sad.....A bunch of really knowledgeable folks who just have trouble carrying on a reasonable discussion.
I guess it's why this is "home" for so many of us?
I think the color is a combination of gray zinc based park and oxidized oil on the park. It could even be linseed from years of slopping stocks with it. Oil does oxidize to a yellowish color and you put yellow over gray I believe it does get a distinct green tinge. Just my opinion.
It has been done using the same solutions, or as close to the same as possible using available period data and MILSTD procedures used today. After some trial and error the result was an olive green tint to the zinc phosphate finish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired Retired
Dang, wandered over to CSP for the first time in awhile. Half the topics had negative or smart-@ssed posts. Ouch! In one topic, a person asked what hardbacks were worth and got his head bit off and was generally made fun of. If there are none for sale anywhere, how would a person know without asking? Sheesh!
This is 'it' as far as I'm concerned. The guns were not 'green' when new. They do not turn 'green' if left in the pristine state, like one I saw in the Quartermaster Museum at Ft. Lee before 'they', in their infinite wisdom, removed all real guns from the displays in the interests of 'safety'. That carbine was medium to dark grey with the correct blued parts, etc. It was quite eye-opening seeing that brand-new, sixty year-old carbine - non-stained or oiled stock, 'fresh' Parkerizing, sharp markings and all. The perception of 'green' is actually the combination of the grey phosphate and amber/brown oxidized oil, including linseed oil as noted above. Oxidized oil puts a permanent stain on/in the highly-receptive phosphate finish. If you change your own engine oil, you may have noticed how the stain can permeate even baked-on glossy paint on engines, filters and tools/accessories. Speaking of used engine oil, if you want to 'color' a fresh re-Park, boil it in used oil or just soak it for a few weeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizzouboy
I'll also have to defer to Charlie's Zinc Chromate, because I really don't know if that was used or if it would turn Park'g 'green'. If it was used, it would seem to have the effect of turning 'green' with no oil being applied, which contradicts what I have seen - not just the one 'new' carbine but as mentioned already the new-old-stock Park'd parts being grey, not 'green' when opened. However, I have not studied the question and cannot say either way, except I know for certain the oil staining effect is real.
It's not zinc chromate it is chromic acid. The chromic acid rinse is used as a sealer to provide additional corrosion resistance. Look up MILSTD MIL-P-16232F and look at paragraph 3.2.5.
In an in-house newsletter published by Inland during the war there is a picture of a factory worker dunking assembled barreled receivers into a tank of sealer. The sealer would have been the chromic acid solution. Too long of an exposure time or too high of a concentrate of H2CrO4 imparts the green tint to the phosphate coating. Nothing spectacular just simple chemistry at work.
My thoughts were based on the use of Zinc Chromate (tinted) in early WWII production as a corrosion resistant finish.
Zinc Chromate Green added as a binder and tint to the Chromic Acid bath.
JMT,
Charlie
Myself, I'm a member over there, post very little because frankly I'm not sure I really have the expertise to comment on too much, I don't have the years of experience in surplus firearms I'm sure many there and here have.
I'm more active here because of some here who I know truly are near experts or as close as anyone I know are going to get on military surplus firearms. And I enjoy the discussions without the constant bickering and trying to prove who has the bigger "hangy-down" thing you see in other internet forums on guns.
Truly what sold me on here being the premier site for military firearms is the fact Bill Ricca is not only a featured sponsor here but a contributor in most discussions. Bill is to me a guru of the type firearms we collect and enjoy.
All of you guys are good folks, I've never seen this place turn ugly, and that's a rarity on line these days. My thanks to all, from the moderators to the members who strive to keep this forum a civil place to discuss military surplus arms!
I think you have nailed it. About a year ago I used some rubbing alcohol on my A4 and the brownish-greenish grunge came right off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizzouboy
I aquired this particular rifle in the late 60's directly through a contact at Interarms in Alexandria, VA. It had been service with the Thai's and more than likely never spent any time in cosmoline since it bypassed the usual DCM/CMP disposal route. Also it has no rebuild marks or indications of a trip back to a depot or arsenal.
Regards,
Jim