Maybe this will help some of those who don't have books get an idea as to when their carbine was produced.:wave:
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Maybe this will help some of those who don't have books get an idea as to when their carbine was produced.:wave:
M1CarbineForum - Powered by ForumCo.com - The Forum Company
Unfortunately, it's a closed forum ...
The link only works for members ... :confused:
Regards,
Badger
Well it is another good forum! http:// m1carbineforum.forumco.com Or maybe a member here that has the production dates could post a sticky with the info. We all try to help each other!
It is also not very accurate.
Well how about an accurate sticky?
I wish people would stop using this list of serial numbers as some of them are way off as well as the dates. In fact the book it came from is loaded with errors and is outdated at best. Brian is right it's just not accurate.
For the past year or so I've been gathering serial number and barrel data from every IP, S.G. & S'G' I've either personally seen, seen for sale (as long as pix can confirm whether S.G. or S'G' or seen pix/data of that members have posted on various forums. Lately I've also been adding whether a carbine had gone through a post-war rebuild as well, figuring that because many Carbines did retain their original barrels there would be less chance someone would change a barrel on a rebuild yet keep it in that configuration.
I will agree with shadycon on this. When someone askes a question about a date associated with a particular serial number an answer may or not be given. We have all heard a number of times that that "list" is no good but no one offers up information that they have to help put together one that is good.
We have some very knowledgeable folks here on this site that like to hold onto their information as if it is top secret. There is a lot of information that is top secret and should be treated as such but is the "born on dates" really all that top secret? How about one of the fellas with good, reliable information about dates post a sticky chart showing them. TIA
I'd be more than happy to share the serial number info that I've gathered, Bill. But how about we go one better and start an IP/S'G'/S.G. serial number thread of our own?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Hollinger
The info provided should at very least include the first 4 digits of the serial #, barrel make and date (if dated). We would need to be specific whether it's an S.G. or S'G' since a simple SG won't cut it with all the crossover between serial # ranges. We could possibly include other abbreviated info we deem important, for example wide tang/narrow tang (wt/nt), SG subcontract stampings, original configuration/condition (oc) or post war rebuild (pwrb). Other data that I note are where and when seen such as Gunbroker (GB 1-09) and who reported/owns it
Example: S'G' 1871xxx with 9-43 UEF nt, oc (Maniac CSP)
Other info like stocks, trigger housings, bolts, safeties, mag catches etc. would be less valuable since all these can be changed out easily without detection.
Of course, this could be also done for other carbine makers too. If so, it might be easier to break the different manufacturers into separate stickies or subforums. Just think of the barrel usage patterns we would see as our database grew!
Just a thought, sorry if I rambled . . .
Let me take a stab (right or wrong) at why this may be happening. I think that one issue with "sharing" the correct info is that it comes from either the better books or the club, both of which are copywritten. The legal answer is that we can not post the QUOTED info without permission from the copywrite holder. I think its safe to say that those who do possess it also have a great respect for those who have collected it and "own" the collected works - don't want to undercut those that have worked so hard to assemble it....
Now with that said, I honestly think that this attempt to respect the body of the work may be doing some long range harm to the hobby. I would like to see one of the copywrite holder actually post (and give permission to open post) just the CORRECT serial numbers and dates of manufacture information and allow it to be quoted as them as the source. I do not see that causing any loss of revenue or an erosion of any other detailed research info. I believe it will actually create a hunger for many people to dig deeper in what their individual carbine means....
But that is just my opinion.... and I hope that all this detailed information that some have worked so hard (for a lifetime) to collect does not die with the current generation....
Just my two cents worth....
I don't and never will advocate sharing copyrighted information. Some of my personal data comes from carbines I've had the chance to own or examine. In addition, there's often a number of M1 carbines for sale at any of the online gun auctions and these often have detailed pictures and descriptions. Some folks on forums like this one or CMP post pictures and descriptions of their carbines, especially of the recent release of mostly original Bavarian carbines. There is a wealth of info that can be assembled without copyright infringement. Just imagine if every M1 carbine listed at the database on the CMP forum was accompanied by a barrel date and manufacturer?
Regarding detailed information on original M1's, I'll save mine for the Carbine Club. The yearly dues are said to be well worth the modest yearly dues and I look forward to filling out data sheets for my Saginaw Division M1's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired Retired
For clarification, my comments were meant to advocate for the publication WITH the copywrite holders permission....
Guys,
There is not a list of manufacturer dates listed that has accurate dates. There are people that have researched the National Archives and compiled list and for me , I give them the utmost in admiration! They have done the homework. Maybe what you need to do is gather a collective of people ,assign each a manufacturer, and start collecting data. Its not that hard. Start with War Baby pg 210-211,give each carbine a build date of 1 month prior. When you find newer or better data,adjust your dates. It does not come overnight. Take your time and things start to fall in place. You don`t always need copyrighted material.
Loren
I don't think anyone is asking for any information that is copy written. Serial numbers and dates are facts of manufacturing production.
I really hate to think this will die here. How about you fellas in the know posting the information you have.
How many times has a born on date been asked for? Did you copy down the information and store it in your own data base? There is no published serial number list with a manufacture date that I know of. It is basic homework,math and paying attention to detail.
That is a good place to start.Quote:
Originally Posted by lbelflowers
When you start building your chart remember to factor in things like the percentages of receivers scrapped after the serial number was applied, especially if the manufacturer didn't reuse those serial numbers. If they did be prepared for the odd ball serial number that doesn't fit your model. Also need to take into consideration serial number blocks, or portions of the block that were used out of sequence, and those used simultaneously with other blocks. For those manufacturers that had subcontractors providing receivers remember to factor in the deliveries of the subcontracted receivers throughout the relevant serial number block(s). Other ankle bitters like duplicating serial numbers and not finishing a block before going to the next assigned block must also be taken into account. The more data reference points you can locate to check your results the more accurate the results will be. Once you get a real accurate chart you can factor in transferred receivers and adjust accordingly.
Hey Bill, I'm flattered to think I may be "in the know" but I'm sure lots of you folks here have seen many more M1 Carbines than myself. I'm merely an M1 carbine fanatic at this point in time but trying to learn all I can. We're lucky to see more than a 1/2 dozen carbines at any of the shows in my neck of the woods, the last local show I attended had only one and it was chromed! Here's my modest IP/S'G'/S.G. serial number database, collected by means I've posted previously. I've only recently been adding the source of the info and "rblt" if a postwar rebuild. The absence of "rblt" does not necessarily mean that a particular carbine is original with early features.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Hollinger
IP receiver guns :
1.76xxxx with Rock-Ola 1/43
1.77xxxx with UEF 1/43
1.771xxx with Rock-Ola (undated)
1.776xxx with Rock-Ola 3/43
1.781090 with UEF 2/43 (GB 09-2009)
1.789775 with UEF 3/43 (GB 1-2010)
1.791979 with 6/43 UEF
3.213xxx with UEF 2/43
3.213xxx with UEF 3/43
3.216xxx with UEF 12/42
3.222568 with UEF 4/43 rblt (CMP/GB)
S`G` Grand Rapids
1.764xxx with 8/43 UEF
1.766109 9/43 UEF rblt (GB 11-2009)
1.791xxx with 6/43 UEF
1.800xxx with 3/43 Inland
1.815xxx with 4/44 UE
1.822935 with 8-43 UEF rblt
1.823xxx with 9/43 UEF
1.823135 with 8/43 UEF bbl
1.824xxx with 8/43 UEF
1.831xxx with 8/43 Buffalo Arms
1.833636 with 8/43 Buffalo Arms
1.834xxx with 8/43 Buffalo Arms
1.844xxx with 3/43 Rock-Ola
1.856126 with 9/43 UEF rblt (1-10 GB)
1.860xxx with 11/43 IBM
1.8713xx with 9/43 UEF
3.229xxx with 3/43 UEF rblt (1-10 GB)
3.2xxxxx with 4/43 UEF
3.2226xxx with 4/43 UEF
3.233xxx with 12/43 UEF
3.234025 receiver (GB 1-10)
3.2364xx with 6/43 UEF
3.239xxx with 6/43 UEF
3.241xxx with 6/43 UEF rblt
3.244xxx with 6/43 UEF
3.258963 with 3/44 UEF rblt (GA 1-10)
3.554xxx with Saginaw
3.557xxx with 11/43 UEF rblt
3.594509 with 7/43 Buffalo Arms (10-1009 GB)
3.599xxx with 9/43 Buffalo Arms
3.605xxx 11-43 Inland rblt
3.624662 WT with Saginaw rblt
3.635xxx with Saginaw
3.6489xx with 11-43 Inland
3.650947 with 9/43 UEF
3.6xxxxx with Saginaw
S.G. Saginaw
3.216757 with Saginaw rblt (GB 11-2008)
3.220xxx with 8/43 UEF
3.298xxx with 10/43 Inland
3.2xxxxx with undated IBM
3.327xxx with UEF 7/43
3.341043 with Saginaw
3.353010 with 1/43 WRA rblt (GB 1-10)
3.353xxx with Saginaw
3.3x4541 with Saginaw (CMP forum Bavarian)
3.35xxxx with Saginaw rblt (GB 11-2008)
3.358xxx with 6/43 UEF
3.364xxx with Saginaw
3,367310 with Saginaw rblt (GB 11-2008)
3.374059 with Saginaw (CMP forum)
3.392327 with Saginaw rblt br (GB 1-10)
3.403xxx with undated IBM
3.404707 with Saginaw rblt (GB 1-2010)
3.405xxx with Saginaw
3.407xxx with Saginaw
3.417xxx with Saginaw
3.429xxx with 4/44 Inland (GB 11-2008)
3.477xxx with Saginaw
3.488766 with 8/44 UEF rblt (GB 1-10)
3.49xxxx with 3/44 UEF
3.513527with Saginaw (CMP forum)
3.516540 5/44 Inland rblt
3.537xxx with Saginaw
3.594xxx with 11/43 Inland
5.851xxx with Saginaw
5.858xxx with 1/44 Inland
HTH
Fellas, I'm not asking for me. I'm asking for the good of everybody here at the site. I know what my carbines are and no I have not kept track over the years when someone else posts that information. Thanks
Maniac/Charlie -
I've got an M1 carbine that I purchased from DCM back in either late 1960 or early 1961. It's a Saginaw S'G', 18635xx, with an Underwood 9-43 barrel. It was rebuilt at Rock Island Armory sometime between 1947 and 1958 from the RIA over EB boxed cartouche on the left side of the InlandType 3 stock.
I'm new to carbine collecting; what's UEF? Underwood barrel presumably, but what's the EF stand for?
66Zoomie
Years ago, I moderated or co-owned several boards pertaining to classic or antique Motorcycles.
Never in the years of those projects was a member advised to join a "pay to use" group to obtain additional information. Nor was a member ever chided to "research it" further.
If anyone had the information, they provided it. If the reply would have required too much retyping, the advice would be to visit a http://www.Wxyz site to get the whole answer.
Are Carbine owners such an Elitist bunch?
Underwood Elliott FisherQuote:
Originally Posted by 66Zoomie
I'm wondering the same thing Phil. This was only about establishing an updated research data base that could have helped everyone, including publishers. This should be an open group effort with all known info in one place.
This web site is now the premier web site for knowledge. That is what it was put together for from the beginning. It's a good place to talk, but Doug put it together for the betterment of all for research.
I have all the carbine books published and many of the dates don't match each other. (Not close sometimes)
The outstanding members here will often post updates from their knowledge gleaned from many resources and their own personal knowledge as far as dates.
I hope we can get over old ideas, and work together in this collective resource that is now available.
Phil,Quote:
Originally Posted by phil441
The Carbine Club just published the most exhaustive and extensive serial number list to date:
The Carbine Club - A CMP Affiliated Organization
There was obviously much time and expense incurred collectively to do this. Their membership is $18 per year for 6 issues. Is that too much to spend? I don't understand why this information always needs to be given away gratis to those who don't feel like doing their own research. Is $3 per issue too much to pay for the most concise carbine serial number list ever published? This doesn't even pay for out-of-pocket costs incurred, the cost of publishing, and does not even consider the time involved. This is considered "elitist?"
Do you expect those who publish hard bound books on the subject, or any subject, to send you one gratis? Are they all "elitists" because they won't? I don't see the difference. Most who complain about this have never done any hard research or have nothing to contribute so their excuse about lack of gratuitous information is always met with "elitism."
UEF-Underwood Elliott FisherQuote:
Originally Posted by 66Zoomie
Ya know, I think I see a big aurguement coming on this.... I dont know if I want to express my opinion or if I want to sit on the sidelines and sell the popcorn....
So it begins.....
Guys, pls keep it on an even keel - discussion = good. Big argument = not as good. :)