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A few years back I purchased a Remington 1903 Rifle that is set up as a match rifle with a Lyman 48 rear sight and original barrel. The barrel is in great condition, gauging a "0" on the CMP muzzle gauge and the rifle is quite accurate. The problem? I just discovered that it closes on a Forster Field gauge.
What can be done about this condition? A few people have suggested that I have the barrel set back. I've swapped various bolts with my other 03's and 03A3's, to no avail.
Reload! To maximize case life, on the first loading seat the bullets so that they lightly engage the rifling. (Somewhat less than max load here!) Cases will fireform to the chamber w/o stretching - the shoulder will be moved forward and you're good to go! Just segregate the brass.
if your not having pressure issues, or splitting cases, primers popping out, i wouldnt worry about it.
more damage then good will be done by {setting the shoulder back}.
try another bolt, as well.
Whheeewww. Glad to hear this. It is a really pretty match rifle (I've posted pics of it on this forum Remington M1903 Match rifle - Military Surplus Collectors Forums), and pretty accurate. I really enjoy shooting it.
I haven't noticed any of the pressure issues that you mentioned, Chuck. Would there be any advantage to reloading LC or HXP military brass (I have a boat load of both)? I've always heard that military brass is thicker than commercial brass. Would that offer any "margin of safety" that commercial brass wouldn't?
Thanks.
If you MUST fire factory ammo (Which is highly NOT recommended- it only takes one weak case to ruin your day), then military brass may add a degree of comfort - just as long as its not so old that its a bit "age" hardened.
For reloading purposes there's not a lot to be gained by using military brass. Excessive headspace doesn't increase pressure, it just stretches the web to base area of the brass. In some cases this results in case head separation, not good! The "pressure" signs usually result from the primer slamming rearward on ignition, followed by the rear portion of the case during the rise in pressure from the powder burn. This tends to make the primer face flatten out as it gets "reseated". Lower pressure rounds won't permanently stretch the case as much, resulting in the "backed out" appearance of the primer. Even if nothing shows externally, the web will be thinned to some degree- check for a bright ring just forward of the extractor groove.
:runaway:The bright ring forward to the extractor groove is the primary visual clue that your brass has been damaged! :thdown:
(There's ways of measuring the thinned out area, but I'll assume you aren't equipped to do that.)
At any rate, to maximize case life, the base of the case needs to maintain close contact w/ the bolt face. Its not important for your purposes if the forward portion of the case remains "stanard" dimensionally after firing.
That's why seating the bullets out further helps- the base is restrained against the bolt face until the pressure builds enough to force the body and shoulder of the case against the chamber walls. (You can also place a tiny orthodonic rubber band around the case neck/ shoulder juncture to achieve the same result, but there will be a small annular indentation left after firing- not ideal, but it sort of works.)
Remember, the '03 doesn't have the world's best emergency gas handling system. That honor, for milsurps, still belongs to the Mauser 98.
Remember, the '03 doesn't have the world's best emergency gas handling system. That honor, for milsurps, still belongs to the Mauser 98.
hmmm.
well, not to pick.
but..
the Remington 1903 has 3 gas holes. right side, Hatcher hole on the left, and straight down in front of the mag box..{sort of}
the cocking rod is also made so that hot gasses blow bast the shooters face, instead of straight into the eye, {the Mauser doesnt}
the 1903 has a safety lug to prevent the bolt from hitting the shooters face during a failure, {Mauser doesnt}.
the Remington 1903 is made from 2.5% Nickle steel..{the Mauser isnt}
so..though i like the 98 Mauser just fine..its in no way safer or has a better gas excape system then the Remington 1903..or the 1903 Mark 1,{the biggest gas excape in all the bolt gun world. a 1 inch hole on the left side of the receiver}
iv had a few case head failures on both the 1903, and the Mauser 98..
and when it happens with a 1903, i just felt a poof of warm gas on my cheek.
when it happened with a 98..it blew the safety glasses off my face.
and left little specs on my face, with some blood.
the 98 that had an issue was one another smith turned the shoulder back, witch in itself was ok, but then he re reamed the chamber, and throated it as well, and went too far.
and was having issues with extraction, so like a dummy, i offered to shoot said rifle.
and POW. it let loose.i handed the rifle back, and said, replace the barrel.
and told him to stop playing with his lathe. KISS.
the first 03 i had that had a case fail was a used barrel, i installed on a customers gun, not knowing its history, it looked ok, and the rifle was just a sporter hunting rifle.
some goofball opened the chamber out to 30-06 imp, and let the tool go to far.
i was smart, had gloves, safety glasses, ect...case stuck, we removed the junk barrel, and installed a good one that i had..
second was last summer, shooting Greek ammo, the rifle has no headspace issues, and was working great, then i felt a little wooosh or heat on my face.
opened the bolt and the rifle is smoking, i looked at the case, and its split all the way up the side.
i ran a rod down the bore, checked headspace, and tried a factory round. worked great, brass was fine, no issues..
just a bad case that likely was brittle.
PM sentQuote:
Originally Posted by Calfed
:rofl:"...(N)ot to pick..."?:rofl:
Now I'm really confused.
I checked the headspace on this rifle with a Forster field gauge. The extractor was installed and I slipped the gauge under the extractor and the bolt completely closed.
I have some Remington 03A3 bolt bodies. I checked the headspace with these bolt bodies (no extractor installed). I slipped the gauge into the chamber and the bolt bodies won't come close to closing on the field gauge.
One other thing--I notice that the third lug, the so-called "safety lug", on the original bolt on this rifle is tight against the action with the bolt closed. With the Remington bolt bodies, the safety lugs are forward of the action, with a noticeable gap between the "safety lug" and the action when they are closed.
Am I unclear on the concept here?
Was my original method of using the field gauge (leaving the extractor installed and slipping the gauge under the extractor) flawed?
Is my method of checking the headspace with the bolt bodies (chambering the gauge and attempting to close the bolt bodies) valid?
Does the difference between where the safety lug fits between the action on the bolt bodies (gap) and the original bolt (no gap) mean anything?
Thanks, Steve
After discovering this, I went about switching ALL my 03A3 bolts with the bolt from the match rifle. What I found was this:
Remington 03A3 #1--B&S bolt--will not close on a FG. When I switch the B&S bolt to the Match rifle, the B&S bolt closes on the FG. When I put the Match rifle's bolt in 03A3#1, it will not close on the FG.
Remington 03A3 #2--NS marked bolt--will not close on the FG. When I switch bolts with the match rifle, neither rifle closes on the FG.
Remington 03A3 #3--Does not close on a FG. When I switch bolts with the match rifle, the match rifle will almost close on 03A3 #3's bolt, but with some force. O3A3 #3 will not close on the FG with the match rifle's bolt installed.
Remington 03A3 #4--Does not close on a FG. When I switch bolts with the Match rifle's bolt, neither rifle will close on a FG.
Smith Corona 03A3 #1--X marked SC bolt-Does not close on a FG. When I switch bolts with the match rifle--neither rifle will close on the FG.
Smith Corona O3A3 #2 --SC bolt--Does not close on a FG. When I switch bolts with the match rifle, neither rifle will close on the FG.
Remington 03A4--Does not close on a FG. When I put the A4's bolt in the match rifle it does not close on the FG. I can't put the match rifle's bolt into the A4 because of scope clearance issues.
So in summary--when installed in any other Remington 03, the match rifle's bolt will not close on a FG. With 1 out of 6 bolts from other 03A3's installed, the match rifle will close on FG. With one other bolt, it almost closes with some force applied. With 4 out of 6 bolts from other 03A3's, the match rifle will not close on a FG. With two bolt bodies(no extractor, firing pin, striker, etc installed), the match rifle will not close on a FG.
I may just need need to switch bolts-- although the match rifle bolt is a thing of beauty--nicely blued/highly polished. By coincidence, I happened to have tried the bolts that would close or almost close to do my original switching.
whats a fired factory case look like...one thats not been reloaded..
I'll have to fire one and look it over. I've shot it numerous times, but all of the brass ended up in my brass bucket, mixed in with 1917, Garand and Madsen brass.
I remember looking it over after I fired it and not seeing anything remarkable. Now I have a better idea of what to look for.
Your understanding is correct There should be at least .004" clearance between the safety lug and the receiver bridge. If the safety lug is touching something isn't right and needs to be investigated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calfed
Regards,
Jim
i was thinking the same thing, thats why i asked about the brass.Quote:
Originally Posted by JGaynor
FYI: i no longer toss my brass all the same bucket so to speak,
i learned the hard way when shooting with my dad.
his Remington A3 has a stretched receiver, has since he picked it up back in the 60,s though his brass is ok to be used back in his gun after its reloaded, its a bear to close a bolt when used in one of my rifles..
lost a shot at a nice Buck a few years ago, couldnt get the bolt closed on a second shot,,darnit it was one of his brass cases i ended up with,...
anyway.
with his rifle, iv done the following....
tried a few other bolts, no luck. tried 4 defferent new barrels. no luck.
turned the shoulder back on 2 barrels...no luck.
next would be to turn back the face of the reciever..but he says.
damn thing has shot fine for 46 years, killed lots of critters, brass lasts 5 reloads, and thats fine..
ok..then dont toss your brass in my box!!
so.
now, i keep brass with the guns its shot in.. if i sell a rifle, the brass is offered with the rifle.
if he doesnt want the brass, its scrapped.
what i have found, is that Remington A3,s and 03,s are just surfaced hardened, and like the M1917 can stretch, though rare, it can happen.
i noticed on my dads rifle the locking lug weys, are cut a bit, from being worked and shot.
youll only be able to see that with the barrel removed.
iv seen several 1917,s with the same issue, that would close on a no go, and field.
but when you look at a fired case, they look ok.. if your getting a lot of stretch or cracking a case, id worry, if not....stick with the brass shot in that rifle, and dont mix them up.
if someone shot that rifle a lot, and sounds like they did, id bet this is the issue.
I found a link to a CMP page that indicated that they recommend Clymer over Forster headspace gauges for military rifles. I went ahead and ordered one from Brownells.
The Clymer's 30.06 field gauge arrived today and the Match 1903 WILL NOT close on the Clymer gauge. Wheeeww.
For information, the Forster Field gauge lists a spec of 2.0577.
The Clymer gauge lists a spec of 2.0587.
Guess I'll stop worrying about it. but I did order some Redding 30.06 neck sizing dies and 100 rounds of Remington 30.06 brass--for accuracy sake, I'll go ahead and neck size for this rifle.
Thanks for the help, guys.
So I guess the headspace on this chamber/bolt combination is <.001 out per the Forster gauge.
Ignoring the Clymer gauge for the moment, is .001 out of headspace significant?
...but it does mean that after every 100-500 rds you would prob'ly want to check it again.
Chris
I'll keep my Clymer gauge handy
I obtained a US Ordnance field gauge. It is marked "1.950", so I'm guessing that it indexes on a different part of the chamber than the Clymer (marked 2.0587) and Forster (marked 2.0577) field gauges.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...auge0081-1.jpg
At any rate, the 1903 does not come close to closing on the US Ordnance gauge. Even more so than the Clymer.
Here are a few pics of the US Odrnance gauge.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...auge0031-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...auge0051-1.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckindenver
I took the rifle to the range and fired a few different 30.06 rounds and have kept the brass separate. I can post pics, but what am I looking for?
Thanks, Steve
a lot of squat at the case head, case split..primer backing out.ect.