The History of a Rifle

I've had a Springfield M1903 in my rack for more than 40 years. As a twenty-something, I lost interest in it because it has a very low serial number (19,0XX) and I understood it couldn't be fired. Now, as a sixty-something, my interest in it has grown again.

I believe that serial number indicates the rifle was built in 1903. The barrel is a Springfield dated 1916. I'm curious about what may have gone on with the rifle during that 13 year period.

Check my thinking on this. The US was not at war between 1903 and 1916, so I doubt the original barrel was shot out and replaced. I don't have the original stock, so I don't know whether there might have been a rebuild mark on it. Might the receiver have sat on a shelf all that time and not mated with a barrel until 1916 or later? I assume the receiver was converted from the '03 to the '06 cartridge somewhere along the line, but I don't know how to fit that into the likely chronology.

Would someone with more knowledge than I have (it wouldn't take much!) care to speculate on the rifle's history? I'm just curious. Am I correct in understanding that it shouldn't be shot? How significant is the risk?

By the way, other than a warn finish, the rifle appears to be in excellent shape. The metal shows no signs of having seen battle.

Thoughts, anyone?

Thanks,

Mike

well, i have no idea of the history of your rifle.
that would be pretty tough to find..
as for it being a Single heat treated reciever, you are correct in your statement,.
SHT rifles should not be shot..that being said..
they likely wont just blow up for no reason, the issues were more with how they handled a failure, case rupture, bore obstruction, or high pressures.
though i dont recomend anyone fire a SHT rifle, though i shoot my 1909 RIA from time to time.
if you choose to do so, first and foremost, safety first, make sure you wear gloves, safety glasses, hearing protection, and have a range buddy along.
use ONLY new factory ammo, Remington, Federal and Winchester, are loaded pretty tame.
avoid +P loads, and stay with lighter bullets 150Grn is all you really need.

Actually,they were at war in the American southwest!Refered to as the Mexican Campaign,or the last Campaign.

If the barrel was more like 1906 to 1909, you might have had a point. Large numbers of M1903s which were made in caliber 30-03 were rebarreled, when the 30-06 cartridge was adopted and you could argue that the later barrel was at least "semi-original". However, there is almost no chance that a 1916 barrel might serve the same function.

Keep in mind that there is nothing that said a barrel had to be used as soon as it was made. Your barrel might have been removed from a condemned rifle and installed well after WWI, or even in World War II. The barrel could have been manufactured in 1916 as a "spare" and not used until the big rebuilding program after World War I. Unfortunately, there is no way of checking for sure. With the small budgets the Army had in those years, every spare part that could still fuction was used.

Also keep in mind that the Army was a little unclear about exactly caused barrels to pit and corrode, and cleaning methods weren't the best. As was touched on, there is a good chance your receiver could have seen a lot of active service in those pre-WWI yeras.

Any one of these theories could be correct - or all of them could be wrong and the later barrel might be explained by yet another reason.

The 1903 Springfield was first used in combat on 14 April 1914 at Vera Cruz, Mexico by Blue Jackets and Marines. Hard to say which group fired the first shot in anger, or if they were shooting at each other!

You can find the history of your rifle for a price - at least where it has been stationed. It is done through Redstone Arsenal for a price which starts at $60.

Jim

I would guess that rifle had a .30-'03 barrel on it. They recalled all of the rifles in 1906-1909 and rechambered the barrels. Some rifles kept their own barrels and some received a different barrel. This conversion project was long done by 1916 so it is difficult to determine when your barrel was installed. 1916? Perhaps. 1930-35? when the Depression caused many older barrels to be used as replacements. Hard to tell what and when it happened.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jim Tarleton

The 1903 Springfield was first used in combat on 14 April 1914 at Vera Cruz, Mexico by Blue Jackets and Marines. Hard to say which group fired the first shot in anger, or if they were shooting at each other!

You can find the history of your rifle for a price - at least where it has been stationed. It is done through Redstone Arsenal for a price which starts at $60.

Jim

---

Hey Jim,

I went to the Redstone site and could not find anything about rifle history for a price. Can you direct me?


Thanks,

Lancebear

Jim, I always assumed the first shots "in anger" for M1903s, was in the Philippines. There was still quite a bit of unrest, especially in Moro country. One large (for pre-WWI) battle on Mindanao at Bud Bagsak, in 1913.

i was told by Rockisland that Redstone has all the small arms records..
at one time i had talked to the person that was in charge of that,
they seemed less then motivated to do so, and said they had never done one before.
i think you have to pull the ol,,freedom of information act, ploy to get things done.
i belive, if you do the search youself, all you have to pay for is the xerox machine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rick the Librarian

Jim, I always assumed the first shots "in anger" for M1903s, was in the Philippines. There was still quite a bit of unrest, especially in Moro country. One large (for pre-WWI) battle on Mindanao at Bud Bagsak, in 1913.

---

Once again, though I have the statement in my files, I did not record its exact source except for it came from the Marine Archives. I remember I was surprised that there were no military engagements from 1904 until 1914 that would qualify the 1903 for "combat".

Bear in mind the military definition of combat may not be what you think.:D In 1970, I and a 6By load of Marines came under fire returning from a Bob Hope Show at Firebase Baldy. Except for some minor steel splinter wounds, no one was hurt. That action did not qualify as a combat action because we had no ammo for our M16's, just those stupid red blocks. I found the Corps' position amusing to say the least. We had been in country about a week and we thought we were going to get our CAR's already the easy way. We were mistaken. You earn that sucker.:madsmile:

Jim:wave:

There were also some pretty big fights in the Philippines in the 1906 period, but I've no proof that the units involved had been re-equipped with M1903s. I heard from one source that most troops in the Philippines had been issued RB M1903s, but have no definite proof.

I tried the redstone deal sighting Freedom of info act I got a return letter saying they made a good faith effort By they only have firearms records post 1975

Post 1975? That's all but useless. Thanks, rice 123, you have saved me a lot of time and trouble.

Jim

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rice 123

I tried the redstone deal sighting Freedom of info act I got a return letter saying they made a good faith effort By they only have firearms records post 1975

---

I looked over the Redstone Arsenal Website and couldn't find anything relevant either. Did you address your request to a specific activity or to the base CO?.

This Redstone thing is looking like another "Flying Dutchman"! ;)

Regards,

Jim

I sent the request to a address at redstone that Jim Tarteton gave me

when i had a chance visit to RIA a few years ago, Nick Ferris told me they had all the records, so i had all my numbers ect ready for a search.
the manager at RIA told me that Redstone has all the small arms records.
at one time i contacted a man from RS.
he said he had never done one as of yet, and i never went any further.
id bet a trip with serial numbers in hand with the power of the freedom of information act, would likely get you in and digging through the records.

I found this on the Redstone Arsenal web site:

http://www.redstone.army.mil/history...5/bunyard.html

MG Max Bunyard is a personal friend whom I admire a great deal.:thup: Maybe he can direct me in the right direction.


In lieu of that option which probably won't be productive, this is the official information to search for rifle histories::madsmile:

*********************
Official formation from RIA Museum site below:

1. The U.S. Army Materiel Command (USAMC) Logistics Support Activity at Redstone Arsenal, Alabama, can trace the history of ownership of military weapons at the organizational level. Records do not include the individual who was issued the weapon.

2. In order to obtain a copy of this information, you must submit a request in writing under the aegis of the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA).

3. You should include in your correspondence the following:

a. “Under the Freedom of Information Act, I hereby request that the records of Integrated Support Center, USAMC Logistics Support Activity be searched for the history of ownership of the following weapon.”

b. Include the model of the weapon and its serial number.

c. “I agree to pay for reproduction costs and research and review time.” You can include a monetary limit on what you are willing to pay for these services.

4. Your letter should be addressed to:

Commander
USAMC Logistics Support Activity
Integrated Support Center
ATTN: AMXLS-IS (FOIA Officer)
Redstone Arsenal, AL 35898-7466
OR

Military Weapon Records

1. The Director for Civilian Marksmanship (DCM) sales records that were originally located at the Sales and Donations Section, Materiel Management Directorate, U.S. Army Armament, Munitions and Chemical Command, headquartered at Rock Island Arsenal, Rock Island, Illinois, have been transferred to the Donations Group, U.S. Army Tank-automotive and Armament Command (TACOM), Warren, Michigan.

2. If the sales record of your weapon exists, it would be located with these records.

3. To request a search of the sales record, please submit a request in writing to:

U.S. Army Tank-automotive and Armament Command
ATTN: AMSTA-LC-CID
Warren, Michigan 48397-5000

4. Include in your correspondence the model number and serial number of the weapon.
**********************

Now we all have the correct information.:beerchug:

Jim Tarleton:wave:

didnt i sent you that letter???
can find mine,,maybe if i cleaned my desk id have a better chance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jim Tarleton

I found this on the Redstone Arsenal web site:

http://www.redstone.army.mil/history...5/bunyard.html

MG Max Bunyard is a personal friend whom I admire a great deal.:thup: Maybe he can direct me in the right direction.


In lieu of that option which probably won't be productive, this is the official information to search for rifle histories::madsmile:

*********************
Official formation from RIA Museum site below:

1. The U.S. Army Materiel Command (USAMC) Logistics Support Activity at Redstone Arsenal, Alabama, can trace the history of ownership of military weapons at the organizational level. Records do not include the individual who was issued the weapon.

2. In order to obtain a copy of this information, you must submit a request in writing under the aegis of the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA).

3. You should include in your correspondence the following:

a. “Under the Freedom of Information Act, I hereby request that the records of Integrated Support Center, USAMC Logistics Support Activity be searched for the history of ownership of the following weapon.”

b. Include the model of the weapon and its serial number.

c. “I agree to pay for reproduction costs and research and review time.” You can include a monetary limit on what you are willing to pay for these services.

4. Your letter should be addressed to:

Commander
USAMC Logistics Support Activity
Integrated Support Center
ATTN: AMXLS-IS (FOIA Officer)
Redstone Arsenal, AL 35898-7466
OR

Military Weapon Records

1. The Director for Civilian Marksmanship (DCM) sales records that were originally located at the Sales and Donations Section, Materiel Management Directorate, U.S. Army Armament, Munitions and Chemical Command, headquartered at Rock Island Arsenal, Rock Island, Illinois, have been transferred to the Donations Group, U.S. Army Tank-automotive and Armament Command (TACOM), Warren, Michigan.

2. If the sales record of your weapon exists, it would be located with these records.

3. To request a search of the sales record, please submit a request in writing to:

U.S. Army Tank-automotive and Armament Command
ATTN: AMSTA-LC-CID
Warren, Michigan 48397-5000

4. Include in your correspondence the model number and serial number of the weapon.
**********************

Now we all have the correct information.:beerchug:

Jim Tarleton:wave:

---

Thanks Jim and Chuck - very useful information.

Jim

i dont know anyone as of yet thats had luck with this yet, and would like to see what they get back.

I suspect the cost will be a grave one. I was told it starts at $60, and goes up.

Jim

I trained on the M14 in 1968, firing a perfect score with a TRW-made rifle that was so loose that when shaken it sounded like a bucket full of nickles thrown into a box car. My old drill sergeant just loved having a trainee who had fired a perfect score on the qualification range! He let me polish the marksmanship trophy in the day room every time my squad caught that detail.

While in Vietnam I was issued a M16 (made by General Motors Hydramatic Division), but I found a M14 in the possession of a Vietnamese Regional Forces unit. Our interpreter made the trade for me, and I don't remember all the details, but at day's end I had a real rifle again (and I'm sure the taxpayers only paid for it a couple of times).

I will always consider the M14 to be the finest combat rifle ever issued to US forces. The fact that these rifles are still deployed, after more than 40 years, bears this out..