How Original Is Yours...........

I was browsing through the engineering notes the other day and saw that the fitting of the front trigger guard sling swivel to sniper rifles was authorised on 20th October 1944.

Modification instruction C-507/3 dated 20th Oct 1944

Stores to be removed: SCREWS, guard, trigger, front. Cat No: B1/BB-8166
Stores required: SWIVEL, sling, Mk1(T) No4 rifle Mk1. Cat No: B1/BK-0025

PRIORITY. Class B

Action required: By 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th line REME workshop units.

DETAIL: The front trigger guard screw will be removed and replaced by the sling swivel. It must be ensured that the sling swivel is screwed home tightly when assembled to the rifle.

Rifles of new manufacture will be so fitted during conversion.


There, so before that date, your rifle shouldn't have a front trigger guard swivel. That's going to get some of the purists going!

Related question: did you ever start getting the civilian Parker Hale-marked versions "through the system"?

My 1943 BSA T does not have that sling swivel. I feel so pure. :)

Damn, mine has em. Have to dig out and check the RFI. Gary

No, I never saw a commercial Parker Hale front trigger guard swivel in MoD service. They were slightly different in style.

Checked out the RFI "T". No sling swivel. It too is PURE!!! Mysteries of India..Gary

To build upon Peter's comments there's some interesting feedback from collectors (including Peter), about swivels in various Knowledge Library entries. For example, check this on on the 1944 C No.7 .22 Caliber Lee-Enfield Training Rifle (click here) , which is also duplicated in the 1945 No.4(T) Long Branch sniper article (click here).

You have to check on these rifles if the military version (doesn't swivel 360) was swapped out for the PH version, which is taller and swivels 360 degrees.

Military

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG


Civilian (Parker Hale)

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG

Regards,
Badger

If these swivels were supposed to be fitted at four different REME levels, wouldn't it make sense that any rifle going through one of these levels would be so adapted and therefore correct?

bearhunter, Any pre '44 (T) rifle fitted with the trigger guard swivel (by the REME) is correct, but not original (sticking point for the as manufactured purist collector).

Peter, My N prefixed '44 unfinished/unissued (T) doesn't have the trigger guard swivel. I'm guessing N would be around mid year production (?). Before October anyway.

Brad

One way to tell if your rifle SHOULD have the swivel is to check whether or not your scope bracket has a S/N on it. If it does (brackets were numbered after WWII), then there should be a swivel. There's other post war mods that will serve as clues as well...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmoore

One way to tell if your rifle SHOULD have the swivel is to check whether or not your scope bracket has a S/N on it. If it does (brackets were numbered after WWII), then there should be a swivel. There's other post war mods that will serve as clues as well...

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Like center-punched pad screws.

But just a minute - if there were no swivels used during the war, why did they bother to issue the M1907 sling? (I can't be bothered to dig out the books :D )

Put the sling through the butt swivel and utilize "U.S." style! (Can detach the rear or just loosen enough not to interfere whilst shooting "slung up".) The mid swivel option is just that w/ the M1907 sling- an option. Its super handy when using the British style web sling, though. I like the web sling better, in fact, when utilizing the mid swivel.

Surpmil, If you're referring to the staked screws on the mounting pads, my '44 has all five screws staked once.

Brad

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Put the sling through the butt swivel and utilize "U.S." style! (Can detach the rear or just loosen enough not to interfere whilst shooting "slung up".) The mid swivel option is just that w/ the M1907 sling- an option. Its super handy when using the British style web sling, though. I like the web sling better, in fact, when utilizing the mid swivel.

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I see, but what would be the point of issuing the M1907 sling if there was no swivel on the guard to which to fit it? Might as well just issue a web sling if it can only be used on the butt and band swivels.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bradtx

Surpmil, If you're referring to the staked screws on the mounting pads, my '44 has all five screws staked once.

Brad

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Right, and I believe we're told that indicates it was in UK service post-WWII when the staking of screws became an "SOP", to use NA parlance.

Its was issued because that's what was "supposed" to be issued?

I reckon the operator could much more easily round up a web sling than the leather if he prefered the former. By issuing the leather sling its easier to keep everyone satisfied. Or not. I really have no idea!

Surpmil, My fault, but the '44 (T) referenced above is an unfinished/unissued BSA-Shirley. No doubt staking of the screws became a REME bullit point post WWII, but at some point during WWII H&H started staking the screws.

Brad

If it's unfinished, maybe its a "staking trials" test piece.(?)

jmoore, I think the issue was 'trialed' by the snipers and REME in combat, then a running change made at H&H to preemtively fix the issue.

Brad

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bradtx

Surpmil, My fault, but the '44 (T) referenced above is an unfinished/unissued BSA-Shirley. No doubt staking of the screws became a REME bullit point post WWII, but at some point during WWII H&H started staking the screws.

Brad

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Now that you mention it, my 1944 "T less Telescope" rifle had staked screws, so perhaps they were all done post-WWII.

I can't comment on H&H staking them during WWII. Is there a source for this or is it deduction?

"I can't comment on H&H staking them during WWII. Is there a source for this or is it deduction?" --Surpmil

!n a thread (source unknown now) about the unfinished Savage (T)s there was a remark that they went to stores from H&H and remained there until SOS. Makes sense to me as my transit case is marked (T) less scope so likely of no interest. Possibly not even for the L42A1 conversion program.

A feeble attempt to stay fully on topic...If the REME had staked the screws post war, wouldn't the trigger guard swivel also have been added?

Brad

You would think so Brad, but apparently not!

My 1943 T has the staked screws, but no swivel.:madsmile:

Remember the "Olde Enfield Adage".....

With Enfields, never say never or always!

Of course, if someone was trying to recreate the early to mid war-time (WWII) features, its easy to remove the mid-swivel. If its swivel-less then the bracket ought not be numbered either...(plus some other things that tend to show up on long seving rifles-some of which are also removable.)

Another possibility may have been that the last user- whether pre- or post- "service exit"- may have preferred using the rear swivel and just removed the middle one for simplicity.

"Remember the "Olde Enfield Adage".....

With Enfields, never say never or always!" --Hal O'Peridol
I think this is one of the reasons L-Es are so interesting to us amateur history detectives. :)

jmoore, You're 100% correct. I included my unfinished (T) because I'm pretty confident it's as it was when it left H&H in the time period, Peter, expressed that it could be used as a 'control' piece. There is no reason to suspect that when an issue, whether the handy addition of the target swivel or the staked screws came to the attention of the REME, that H&H wouldn't have been informed, thus adding those steps to the conversion procedure.

Brad

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Put the sling through the butt swivel and utilize "U.S." style! (Can detach the rear or just loosen enough not to interfere whilst shooting "slung up".) The mid swivel option is just that w/ the M1907 sling- an option. Its super handy when using the British style web sling, though. I like the web sling better, in fact, when utilizing the mid swivel.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

I see, but what would be the point of issuing the M1907 sling if there was no swivel on the guard to which to fit it? Might as well just issue a web sling if it can only be used on the butt and band swivels.

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ETA (This may take a little review of the previous posts to make rather more clear)

I think I mised the point of your question, as well, you missed the intent of my post above.

When using the M1907 sling as a shooting aid, the shooter can leave the rear portion of the sling attached to the buttswivel, but loosened sufficiently as to not interfere w/ the front part which is doing all the work. Thus, the mid swivel serves no purpose in this case. In reality, there's NO reason to have a mid-swivel when using the M1907 as originally conceived.

Thus, the introduction of the mid-swivel would have been purely to accommodate the web sling which more or less requires the mid-swivel to be used whilst shooting the rifle. For carrying purposes, it really doesn't matter terribly. I like that the sling DOESN'T need reconfiguring or even adjusting when transitioning from shooting to carry modes, however it's not going to be easy to make it "parade ground" tight unless the sling is moved to the rear swivel.

This raises the interesting issue of whether the leather sling actually became just an option, or possibly obsolescent, when the mid-swivel was adopted.

Apparently, no official explanation was thought necessary, as the CES wasn't modified. Again, the M1907 sling may have been left in the kit as they were much harder to round up than the "bog standard" web sling. That gave the user an option- as hard as that may be to imagine!

Something else to make you go- "Hmmmm"

The leather sling was always part of the No4T CES and never declared obsolest. It was declared obsolescent at the introduction of the Nylon L8 sling for the L42. I suppose that strictly speaking, it COULD be correct to have an L8 nylon sling on a No4T because there were still No4T's sloshing around the system when the L8nylon sling was introduced. Certainly the RAF Regiment had No4T's as did some of the TA and 'colonials'

If the M1907s were actively used to any degree, one would expect a ready source of spares. How late (or are they still) were they able to be ordered though the "usual" channels?

(Assuming that obsolescent means that they have some but they're not likely to get any more!)(?)

Thge 1907 sling was available up until the early 70's but it wasn't popular for many reasons - but it stayed because there were plenty! It was declared obsolescent and if you ordered one on that part number, the issue paperwork was amended by Ordnance to read the new nylon sling which was then issued. Even the thick nylon wasn't that good but the IDEA was. The later cotton/webbing thinner sling was the best of the bunch

The staking trials test rifles were not unfinished. I happen to have one of them in my collection. It's listed in Peter's book, a 1944 conversion sn. K38685.