Printable View
Couple Boyt slings sort of fell into my lap, a 43 and 44. They are dry, but in decent shape. Is there a standard dressing that is put on vintage collectible leather like these? Was told Pecards, looked it up and would have to order. Any thoughts?
On a side note, does Gus Fisher still hang out here?
Thanks,
Ryan V
I use Pecards. Apply it with your hands. The heat from the friction will work the Pecards into the leather. You my need to apply several coats. But wait 24 hours between coats. Than wipe with a 100% cottom rag.
I have a Boyt but I can't see the date. It has brass frogs so it is 1942 or earlier.
Mine was in bad shape. Dry, cracked in areas, vertigris on the brass. I got it all cleaned up and applied Pecards. I had read about Pecards Bloom but decided to apply it any way. Last month I did notice some white powder aka The Bloom. I wiped it off and haven't seen it return. Some will tell you not to apply Pecards or anything, but I disagree. No one knows what this white stuff is so no one can really say it is bad. I saw one post that speculated that it was Pecards causing the salts from the tanning process to come to the surface. Who knows, but now I am not so afraid to touch the sling since I was concerned it would break.
Sorry, but I must strongly disagree in that the "white stuff" definitely results from using Pecards on your leather slings. I must have owned 20-30 or more leather slings over the years, as well as a number of leather WWII pistol holsters. The "white stuff" ONLY appeared on those items treated with Pecards. Untreated items never oozed the white stuff - repeat never. I can also say that IMHO, treating old leather with Pecards did not seem to do much for the leather, EXCEPT cause it to ooze the white stuff. After figuring all this out over several years, I simply gave away all the remaining Pecards I had. I no longer treat my leather with anything. BTW- here in the dry climate of Colorado, the white stuff has to be wiped off every 3-4 months, and it isn't real easy to get off either - takes lots of rubbing with an old towel.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul1440
Wow, thanks for the thoughts, somebody else who's opinion i respect told me mink oil. Seems like the slings are thirsty for something, but maybe not.
Ryan
IIRC from an old post, the white stuff that appears after the use of Pecards is caused by the Neatsfoot oil that was used in the past to dress the leather. Neatsfoot oil is basically animal fat which eventually causes the leather to rot.
RBruce is correct. I have more than a few slings. And not a single one has any white stuff on them. All have been treated with Pecards. And yes the neatsfoot oil will also destory any stitching.
Mink Oil will likely replace some of the natural oils in an old sling, and may also make it look better. I have used mink oil on many different pairs of hiking boots, but I haven't tried it on slings/holsters. I don't recall any long-term bad effects either, and no oozing of the dreaded "white stuff." LOL!Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanV
Whatever you choose, do NOT use Neatsfoot oil! As the other posters mentioned, it eventually rots the leather. Neatsfoot oil was used by virtually all GIs because it softened the leather by breaking down the fibres (essentially rotting it from the get-go). It's bad stuff.
Rick,
What is the white stuff? Without knowing what it is, there is no way to tell if it is bad. And I wiped off the white stuff easily with a cloth, and it hasn't come back. I also treated a new Turner sling at the same time as the vintage sling. New sling - no white stuff, vintage sling - white stuff.
I never personally figured out what the white stuff is composed of. Perhaps RBruce is correct that it is some sort of chemical interaction between Pecard's and old neatsfoot oil. It seems harmless, just ugly and a PITA to have to clean off every few months.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul1440
I live in Colorado, which has a very dry climate. This may have had something to do with the white stuff coming back every few months. Again, I didn't research it. However, I was a member of a military collectors club, and we all peaked on our use of Pecard's at about the same time. Once the white stuff started ooozing out from everyone's old leather, we all stopped using it. Pretty soon you couldn't give it away. LOL!
Nobody mentioned saddle soap. Since you cannot use Pecards, and cannot use Neatsfoot... what's left besides..."mink Oil"....!!??
I spoke with the curators at SANHS (Springfield Armory National Historic Site) about this, and the moment I mentioned 'leather care' his eyes rolled back. Knowing about Renaissance wax and their efforts to preserve our National Treasure of a firearms collection at SAHNS (BTW; as the National Park Service doesn not have the funding to do so, the effort is currently being assisted by your dollars in the from of a yearly grant from the GCA to continue their efforts to preserve the collection housed there ...), I asked what professional curators do in museums to preserve the leather artifacts. He said there is nothing that can be done to stop them from degrading and eventually ALL leather artifacts will change and degrade. I got specific and asked about Pecards and the other leather care products available commercially, and all he would do is reiterate; there is nothing that can be done to stop them from degrading and eventually ALL leather artifacts will change and degrade to nothing but a pile of dust.
Once the cow died the leather started degrading and decomposing. Tanning turned it into a product we could use but it is hardly stable or permanent, and there is nothing that anyone or anything can do. He added that many of not most of the products out there will actually have a negative long term effect and be detrimental. He then stated that the ONLY thing we can do is keep them in as perfectly stable an environment as we can; not too dry not too humid, not too hot, not too cold, and above all; as perfectly stable as we can manage between all these variables.
That is it.
The result for me is that I do not bother trying to 'collect' the leather accoutrements and such - I know that I cannot do anything but watch them go downhill, inexorably.
Sorry if that is not the answer that you want, but my experiences with Pecards have, like Rick's, been wholly and completely unsatisfying. The white stuff never goes away, not here in the midwest, and it is an MF'er to get back off when it shows up.
What can you do if you put neats foot on a sling. they are just uncollectable
leather slings the 40 to 50 dollar kind that aid me in shooting and carrying.
Thanks All!
I put neatsfoot oil on a turner sling years ago, made is look real nice and feel good too. But the keepers would not stay put after that. I am guessing it will still last a few decades anyway as it is. Now Turner Biothane is how i roll.
For the Boyts, i was thinking if they were going to get worked at all, they would crack unless some moisture was put into them. Guess the answer is don't work them. Maybe i will mink oil the lesser example.
Thanks again, especially for the Springfield Historic sight info, i need to see that place someday, remember staring at my computer screen with my jaw open when somebody posted pics of a tour there some time back.
Ryan V
A good sling that is cared for decently should last just fine for as long as you need it. An 80 or 100 year old year old sling on the other hand, well, try to be nice to it.
I found a neat one on ebay a few years ago - two halves of a 1905/1908 Rock Island Arsenal leather sling, each half having a different date. It was in average shape but one side needed a little stitching so I got it for about 27 bucks (I always loved those honkin' Rock Island Arsenal keepers with the hand-bevelled edge - no one else has them quite like that);
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
But what was really neat was that it had some nice Cavalry markings on it.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
Not wanting to deal with trying to preserve it and not 'in' to the early '03s (or whatever this might have been used on), I traded it to a guy that I knew would like it. Now, not knowing what it was actually worth, I just gave it to him and told him what I paid and said 'surprise me' with something from your stash of 'trading fodder' (every serious guy has stuff that he got for a deal so he can trade for what he wants ...). Well, nice guy that he is, he gave me more stuff then I ever imagined - apparently he was VERY excited to see this little sling! I started feeling bad cause I paid so little. I still think I owe him something in return - I'll get him back, don't you worry.
How often do deals turn out like that ...
"Once the white stuff started ooozing out from everyone's old leather, we all stopped using it. Pretty soon you couldn't give it away. LOL!"
What do you now use in very dry leather?
I use nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil Dog
Like Bodyman, I have stopped collecting leather acoutrements, and have sold off most of what I had. I only have a couple of WWII leather slings left that are in essentially mint condition. Putting anything on these slings would constitute a criminal act, IMHO. LOL!
Hey BM, (pun intended)! Looks to me like someone attempted to clean the verdigris off that R.I. sling with a wire brush (done that when I was young and stupid, so I know what the results look like, duh!).
Anyway, if the brass components on your old leather acoutrements are growing that green crap (verdigris it's called) simply use a wooden toothpick to CAREFULLY scrape & dig the stuff off. NEVER use a wire brush, knife, screwdriver or any other metal implement that could damage the leather during the removal process.
Again, IMHO, if you own some old collectible leather, you have some options available to you:
If the leather's dry and/or stiff, and/or cracked, simply do NOT use it. Don't put slings on rifles, and NEVER put pistols in holsters or rifles in scabbards. Roll up the slings and put them away - or sell them to someone else for a profit.
If a leather sling is still soft & supple, you can put it on a rifle, but keep it loose, VERY loose. The contact points where the slings wrap around the swivels are where the cracking initially occurs. The tighter the sling, the more likely it will begin cracking at the swivels.
Of course, this are only my personal thoughts on the topic. Since it's your stuff, feel free to do whatever pleases you, but if your leather self-destructs, don't say you weren't warned.
Nothing. It cannot be rejuvinated. Let me restate this; once they remove it from the original owner - i.e.; once you kill the cow - short of Dr. Frankenstien or a miracle of Biblical proportions, there is nothing that can return it to life. It will follow the natural course of things and return to dust, and there are no products available that can rejuvinate it and rehabilitate it. The ONLY thing you can do is slow that natural process down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil Dog
Now from a collecting standpoint, this is good and bad; you can say 'wow - that makes any excellent items all the more 'rare' and valuable', or you can say that (depending on care) 'any item you get is only going to be getting worse off while you own it'.
Think about it this way; what can you do to make an old pair of tired workboots new again? Answer; buy a new pair. It is common sense with shoes - why not these things?
It is true that some of these items are highly sought after and highly prized, but ask yourself; why is it that original WWII USMC high-top leather boots or, leather M6 fighting knife scabbards are so rare? I will tell you - it is because; they ... didn't ... last. Yet, even fair to average condition, they can still command a good deal of money, and if you follow the link after the pictures you will see that this guy didn't hedge about the fact that these are quite fragile items;
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
WW2 US M6 Scabbard for M3 Fighting Knife, Nice Original - eBay (item 370326357946 end time Jan-27-10 07:14:06 PST)
I once asked a vendor to see a nice WWII helmet - while picking it up and before my eyes he tore the chin strap in two it was so delicate! (All I could think was that I was glad he did it instead of me!)
So I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but all leather eventually falls apart and there is nothing you can do to reverse it or even to stop it. So much so that even museum curators cringe when the subject is brought up. There is just no good answer and the best you can do is slow it down to a snail's pace by keeping things as consistently temperate as you can.
Best all.
(and you guys haven't even gotten to putting these slings into a safe that has a 'goldenrod' in it ...)
On the other hand, I have leather items in good condition that date back 150 years. They were probably kept in dry locations. They may eventually turn to dust, but the WWI and WWII ones that I have treated with Pecards will be in better shape when they are 150 years old than the ones that are currently 150 years old. I'll enjoy them until then, or ......
I'm sure Pecard's would be pleased to know they have at least one staunch supporter of their product. I'm sure there are many others out there, but I'm not sure why.Quote:
Originally Posted by RBruce
I personally can't state that I ever noticed any difference whatsoever between leather I have left untreated vs. treated with Pecard's, EXCEPT FOR all the white stuff that oozes out that we have been discussing for several days, which again, I feel was much more painful (to me) than beneficial. My slings and holsters were just as stiff as they were before Pecard's and looked the same after the white stuff was wiped off.
If you just think about it, if Pecard's were truly "the great solution" to preserving old leather, everyone museum in the country would have a case of it, but they don't. Also, Pecard's claims to preserve old leather, not restore it. I'll be long dead & buried before anyone will know if the leather I applied Pecard's to has been preserved or not.
Old leather damaged from the rigors of use simply CANNOT be restored as there's no miracle balm out there for that (as Bodyman has pointed out multiple times already). The fibers break down over time, and no oil or treatment can repair that.
But hey, if you like Pecard's, and like what it does for your leather, I'm sure Pecard's will be happy to continue to sell it to you. I just know I'm done with it forever. :D
The point is that it is pointless.
For those who want more, when it comes to the conservation of these items there are a few rules that conservators go by. First; do no harm, and second; don't do anything that cannot be undone.
Arguably, all of these products (including Pecards) break both of these rules - they definitely cannot be undone and and many will actually have a detrimental long term effect and do not extend the life of the item but shorten it (though they make the item more useable while it is around - meaning anything that softens the leather is beginning to break it down ... you can add as much 'wonder-goo' as you want but you cannot rejoin those fibres and rebuild those cells ...). Also, like Pecards, they change the appearance by darkening the leather - irrevocably. On top of it, then to have all of that white crud reappearing over and over again (that even the most ardent supporters will grit their teeth over) is just frustrating.
The only thing that the curator at SANHS could give me is to keep them at a consistent humidity and temperature - cool and dry - and definitely do NOT get them wet, and then hope for the best. In a stable environment they may last for generations, while in the worst they may not even last half a year.
If you have already so treated some of your items with these products then it is what it is - I wouldn't use more. If you haven't, I wouldn't. I do nothing to any of them that I have any more. If you really want the things on your rifles or to own some of the other leather items, then make sure you get the best ones you can and then take care of them (as above). But do not grab a cheap one and think you can bring it back to life because that is EXACTLY what you will be trying to do (and if you buy into some of the sales-pitches, thinking you are doing ...) - bring it back to life - and unless you have some connections to the Almighty that you haven't clued us in about, you can't. :D This is the same across the board for all leather products - slings, boots, leather scabbords, leather cheek pieces, B3 bomber jackets and pants, you name it - the leather has a limited lifespan and use will use it up. But now who is going to use an original WWII sling in competition, anyway - you guys have nice new ones for stuff like that.
Other than that, :surrender:
I know this isn't what anyone wants to hear but all I can do is apologize for bringing the bad news - sorry.
One of the slings came on a rifle i picked up, i got a good deal and did not even realize the sling was anything till i later saw the Boyt 43. I am very tempted to give it some mink oil, it just looks real thirsty, i am not fond of how it looks.
The other one has a nice patina and i agree, will leave it alone.
Ryan
Hey Ryan, Please let us know if you think the mink oil helps or not. Again, I never tried it on an old sling - only on boots & shoes. After you rub it in, let it dry for a couple of hours, then buff it off with a shoe brush (does anyone have one of these any more besides me?) or old terry towel.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanV
Aside from that, I'm like Bodyman, as I give up :surrender: on trying to convince people to not waste their money on "snake oils" and other costly but virtually useless balms and salves.
Have fun out there......
Ha, took me a while to catch enough Minks. LOL Hope the pics work, before and after, i like what the Mink oil did. Not sure about doing this to a primo example but this sling needed some moisture.
Ryan V Presidents 100, Distinguished, HM
Balistol will clean and replace the missing moisture in the sling. It doesn't harm the sling in any way but it will darken the leather as it soaks in. It will also make the leather waterproof.
My experience, right or wrong, this is what I did with old CW leather that was dryed out and hard to the point that you could not bend it. Like a cartridge box flap. The ones I worked on were hard as rocks. My thought was to try to re-insert some moisture into the fibers to help perserve them from eventually drying out and turning into dry rot and dust.
As a side note, I was told that leather from cattle that were well fed lasted longer then that from less fed animals apparently because of the amount of fat and health of the animal. Probably why some leather lasts longer through the years even without modern climate controls.
Anyway, I applied a heavy coat of Pecards to the hard leather and did what some knowledgable leather folks tell you not to do. That was not to use heat on leather, but I did. I heated the leather to speed up the soaking in process. In my case I used a hair dryer to heat the leather until all the Pecard soaked completely into the leather. I found that even the hardest/dryed out leather after a few coats of Pecard applied in this manner will soften the leather where it becomes flexible again.
I still have some CW leather items I did this too over thirty years ago and there has been no further visible deteriation of the leather and they still remain flexible and certainly are in better condition then before I did it. Who knows, maybe a thousand years from now they might not be, :yikes:
Note, as mentioned, Pecard will darken the leather as almost all other similar products will.
Ray
I bought a fairly high end baseball mitt a few years ago, and on the tags, Nokona recommends good 'ole Petroleum Jelly - period - on their nice leather gloves, for treating them, keeping them soft, etc. Their literature gave an example of 'boxes old gloves being found in their factory, and the ones treated with vaseline were still in great shape', yada, yada.
I have used some on a couple 1907 slings, and while they appear to "stain" it darker in some places at 1st while trying to get a somewhat even coverage, by the next day or so all is well and the color doesn't change much at all. Just did a nice 1917 a few weeks ago...no issues so far and it certainly improves the condition of the leather.
Edit: found this:
"Nokona Baseball Glove and Mitt Care
Proper care will provide longer use. Because the leather is of the highest quality, a Nokona glove is pre-oiled naturally during the tanning process. Although many sophisticated leather care products are prevelant, plain old petroleum jelly is the only recommended way to re-treat a Nokona glove. To best apply petroleum jelly, rub it into every area including the laces and inside the glove where cracking can take place. Unlike liquefied oils, petroleum jelly won't soak through the padding. "
Just found this thread and have found it very interesting.
I put some Pecards on some leather slings a few months ago and I have not yet had any white stuff appear and I am in Colorado. I will report back in a few months.
I found that putting it on leather that was already dry did not seem to do anything. However putting it on a nicer 1918 sling I have did soften it a bit.
Has anyone had a sling deteriorate because of the pecards they applied?
Has anyone else used the "Balistol" or "Petroleum Jelly"?
Thanks,
Jarrod
I've used Ballistol on several slings and other leather equipment, including shoes. It is an all around product, developed before WWI. It works well on wood, cloth or leather. As mentioned above, it does penetrate and it does darken anything it is applied to.
It permanently water proofs leather and seals wood. It will stop cloth slings from deteriorating but will darken them as well. It will preserve and stop deterioration of stitching on belts, slings, holsters, saddles, shoes and wood products from drying out/cracking/shrinking. Good Stuff.
I will throw one caveat out there. Ballistol is great stuff, IF and only IF, you are planning on using the articles mentioned. It will help them to maintain useful functionality for prolonged periods of time under extreme conditions.
If you are planning on keeping a sling or other leather accessory, for collection purposes, I suggest following the museum curators advice. Leave it alone and keep it dry as well as far away from temperature extremes.
