Did my mag pouch shrink?

A few weeks ago I found what appeared to be a Type 1 magazine pouch for my carbine. It was marked U.S. and CHARLOTTE TENT & AWNING CO. 1943:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../T1pouch-1.jpg

It was dirty so I threw it in the washing machine and air dried it. BUT I found a problem - it doesn't fit my stock!

:confused:

It's rough measurements (5"H x 4.5"W) are a somewhat smaller than those listed by Riesch (5.50"x4.75" 5ed p. 147).

I can't conceive anything GI would shrink. Perhaps this pouch was not meant for 30 carbine. The 15rd mags fit fine so as a belt pouch this still works. Just not on the stock. Were similar strapless belt pouches used for other frequently carried calibers? It's definitely too short for genuine (dad's) WW2 USGI 45ACP mags.

Anybody ever encounter, reassess, or fix a "tight" stock pouch?

Not to be smart, but did you put it on from barrel end of the stock? :)

Yes, from the muzzle end 8Q. The pouch won't go over stock/slide handle/trigger gaurd. Removing the action, pouch fits only as far as the narrowest postion of the buttstock.

Maybe when you wash these things you need to leave them on the stock to dry. I might cut a 2x4 surrogate stock and use that to try to stretch it wet and let it dry tonight to see if that helps.

Were you able to slip it over the stock, but then discovered that the mags don't fit in it? If so, that is really normal. You have to really stretch the pouch quite a bit to get the mags to fit. I only have one of my carbines wearing a pouch. I just leave it empty since I really didn't want to stretch out a pouch and was concerned about damaging the stock by forcing the issue.

I tried to fit the pouch empty and wouldn't slide further down the bare stock than just past the pistol grip.

I soaked the pouch and hammered as many sticks as would fit into the belt loop to "stretch" it.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tretcher-1.jpg

Didn't know this but wet canvas stretches quite a bit. Circumference is about 10 inches now, about the same as the end of the butt stock, so I hope this will be sufficient - probably too much. I'll let it dry tonight and see in the morning.

Might as well finish removing the snap fitting...:move eek:

CrossedCannons,

Sadly, lesson learned the hard way.

Yes, it was an earlier design magazine belt pouch some GI's put on their carbines in WWII. They weren't designed to be used on stocks, but some GI's improvised and put them on stocks.
(Yes, it's the right style pouch, original, and it would have fit your stock, if not washed in a washing machine)

Sadly, you ruined it in the by putting it in a washing machine.
I can see from the last photo the 65 year old fabric color is faded now, along with original ink stamps, and creases caused from washing it are even more prominent and bleached out. It will never look right again.

I collected vintage WWII web gear for years and used it for WWII impressions and displays. The material is very old and you just cannot put it in a washing machine. It's better to leave it as it is. I've restored a couple of items that were seriously soiled so much they looked unusable for display. Use Woolite in cold water in a container and carefully soak it and wash it with you hands. Even doing it this way, you might lose some of the ink markings and 65 year old fabric color.

I can tell from the last photo, the flap is out of shape from the washing machine and it'll never really recover either. The pouch might have shrunk a little, but the reason you had trouble trying to install it on your stock is it's been pulled out of shape and 'puckered up' like the flap did. If you left it on your stock and had been patient, you could have probably pulled it into place a little at a time and it would have eventually moved into place. The creases from washing it will always be there.

The bleached out creases and color missing from the washing machine will still look bad regardless. :crying:

Oh well, I certainly will keep all this in mind the next time I buy some dirty old piece of canvas. Previous owner could have shrunk it or I could have. Cost me $12 at the gunshow last month with most of Life's scars shown so fortunately it wasn't an expensive lesson. Live and learn I guess. But this pouch did stretch for me last night and now makes a perfectly functional addition to my CMP rat gun:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/ratgun-1.jpg

Maybe I'll try to restore it. Can't hurt. Learn some more too. Creases I hope will work out with use and maybe some sun might fade the color to uniformity. Hopefully the snap won't scratch my stock. NOT. Don't know what I can do about the ball point pen ink though. Easiest just to leave it. Probably from some sweet heart's present during the mop up days after the war (bayonet not shown) ...

OK I'm outta here. Third problem resolved. Thanks and take care.

Glad you got it on, you can put a piece of duct tape over the inside of the snap so it wont scratch your stock

made sure I put on the duct tape and had a devil of a time fitting the mags. This on an original Winchester. I found that it just made the balance all messed up, made a light handy weapon into an ill handling heavy club. Since I worried constantly about what it was doing to my stock and I'm not using it in a war, I took it off and won't repeat that mistake again.

I feel the same way about them Dave.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CrossedCannons

Oh well, I certainly will keep all this in mind the next time I buy some dirty old piece of canvas. Previous owner could have shrunk it or I could have. Cost me $12 at the gunshow last month with most of Life's scars shown so fortunately it wasn't an expensive lesson. Live and learn I guess. But this pouch did stretch for me last night and now makes a perfectly functional addition to my CMP rat gun:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/ratgun-1.jpg

Maybe I'll try to restore it. Can't hurt. Learn some more too. Creases I hope will work out with use and maybe some sun might fade the color to uniformity. Hopefully the snap won't scratch my stock. NOT. Don't know what I can do about the ball point pen ink though. Easiest just to leave it. Probably from some sweet heart's present during the mop up days after the war (bayonet not shown) ...

OK I'm outta here. Third problem resolved. Thanks and take care.

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CrossedCannons,

As for washing it, don't you think these things ever got rained on when worn over seas? :dunno: Tropical storms I bet soaked the hell out of some. I'm sure they air dried nicely, I can't see the military issuing new pouches after each rainstorm. Now if you had put it in a dryer, that might have been a bit much.

It shows use, like your rifle does. I think it's a pretty good union. :slap:

It had already lost it's collector value when someone wrote on it with ink, so you didn't ruin anything. You only paid $12 for the pouch. Do what you want, experiment and enjoy it. As someone said earlier, I would remove the snap.

When you want a mint one, they are only about $30.

Jim

Yep, as JimF suggests, I'd go ahead and remove the loosened snap and save the stock. It's a good match. If it's pretty much for show I'd leave it on there. It all looks natural.
If you like to shoot your carbine much, I think you'll find a fully loaded "stock" pouch will turn your carbine into a naturally shooting anti-aircraft weapon as it'll want to shoot high. Of course you can always remove it by loosening one screw.
I think you've got a good looking setup there. It looks good to me.....

You can't put them (or most any other WWII vintage web gear) through a washing machine, even on delicate cycle Jim. I've seen it done before with some of the stuff other re-enactors tried and it wrecks them after surviving 65 years. You probably can't tell as much from the last photo, but the dye washes out and there will be permanent creases and white areas on the creases and they look really bad. It will usually 'pooch up' too and lose it's shape permanently, even if not put through a dryer.

I saw one nice 1928 field pack a guy tried to wash in a machine and it even came apart and the seems all frayed. He said he used a gentle cycle and almost cried when he removed it from the washing machine. He said it was in good shape before, but just had dirt embedded in it and thought it would come clean.

Yes, they can get wet. Like I said, if it really must be washed, use a very mild cleaner like Woolite and soak it gently. I've cleaned a couple of items that way such as very soiled web slings that and just set the pan or bucket near me and swish it around gently every so often while watching TV.
Then rinse carefully with cold water and air dry.

~ Harlan

You're right, another pouch in good condition still runs about $35.

PS, CrossedCannons,
Glad you were able to get it installed on your stock. I agree with all - I think you should go ahead and remove the snap.
It won't hurt the pouch's value at this point, and the snap on those things is the most serious detriment of putting them on an old original stock anyway.
If you leave a pouch on for a long time the snap can even press through duct tape leaving an impression, and it you shoot it much you'll rub the snap against your stock even more.

Once I bought a new $50 reproduction pair of herringbone twill pants for re-enacting, because my son and I never used any of our 65 year old original clothing in situations where it might tear or otherwise ruin the original clothing.

Of course the new pants looked a brand new OD green when the UPS man dropped them off, so I tried washing them in hot water hoping they'd fade and look worn.
(Wife said the directions said to wash in cold water only and told me not to try it)

I did it anyway, and when I pulled them out of the wash, the color of my $50 pants had changed from olive drab to a true baby crap yellow!

When she saw them, she didn't even say "Told you so!" (It would have been easier on me if she had) :madsmile:

Fabric items can shrink. Not only will soap and water do it, but water with long periods of time will do it. Remember a lot of WWII items were never Fungus Proofed (Mildew Resistant Treated), so water will get into them.

I have had some pouches that shrunk to the point that the mags would no longer fit. I found old beat up mags, and stretched the pouch after soaking it in water, inserted the magazines and locked the lid closed. I left it that way for two days and once the pouch dried out, the mags fit. I did the same thing with wooden blocks without having the danger of the magazines rusting. A couple of times I oiled the outside of the mags, but it stained the inside of the pouch.

The last 25/30 years I no longer wash anything in a washing machine. Now I wait until I get a large batch and dry clean it. Commercial dry cleaning works perfectly and does not effect the overall color. The items are placed inside a pillow case and tied closed when drying cleaning.

When I find something quite valuable, I might even dry clean it separately. The last item was a carry case for the WWII 2.36 Rocket Launcher Ammunition. It cost me only $10.40 to dry clean it. I always recommend dry cleaning.

Fabric/webbing can shrink.

I also ended up with a "yellow" ebay repro sling after trying to remove some of its "newness" :eek: before I found an original C-tipped sling at the same gun show for $2. Maybe I'll post it in another thread.

:dancingbanana:

Thank you Mr. Ricca for your comments. i just didn't expect such an "experienced" item which almost certainly encountered water at least once in its life would still shrink. Once washed, my jeans don't really shrink much. So the phenomenon and the fact that I don't really know these items (it doesn't say 30 caliber anywhere on it) just raised some doubts in my mind as to my purchase.

FWIW, I think the lesson I learned here is to use some type of stretcher to prevent shrinkage when drying if fit is a real issue. Maybe if I dry it on my stock with your idea of using wood blocks for mags its fit will actually improve. Probably how it was done originally by the real end users (but with steel mags). Hmmmm ...

Thanks guys.

:beerchug:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cafdfw

You can't put them (or most any other WWII vintage web gear) through a washing machine, even on delicate cycle Jim.

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Harlan,

I never said to wash it in a machine. I have never done that. I said as for washing it. Because I know my stuff got wet in Viet Nam. We just laid it out in the sun when the rain stopped.

I was just being a wise guy saying Now if you had put it in a dryer, that might have been a bit much.

Because most of my web gear is in very nice shape, I hadn't thought of Bill's dry cleaning idea. That now might make me buy something I would have passed on before. Thanks Bill. :thup:

My point was that it was not collectible and he would not lose much if it didn't work out.

Jim

' dry clean it'

This is it. Never wash an old piece of web gear. I usually dry clean stuff myself if I feel like it has to be done by 'washing' it in dry-cleaning solvent like Naptha.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by INLAND44

' dry clean it'

This is it. Never wash an old piece of web gear. I usually dry clean stuff myself if I feel like it has to be done by 'washing' it in dry-cleaning solvent like Naptha.

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So you do your own "dry cleaning"? Or did I mis-read your post? As I seem prone to do.....
Never tried it myself.
Any tips and tricks to dealing with dry-cleaning with Naptha to share?

Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimF4M1s

Harlan,

I never said to wash it in a machine. I have never done that. I said as for washing it. Because I know my stuff got wet in Viet Nam. We just laid it out in the sun when the rain stopped.

I was just being a wise guy saying Now if you had put it in a dryer, that might have been a bit much.

Because most of my web gear is in very nice shape, I hadn't thought of Bill's dry cleaning idea. That now might make me buy something I would have passed on before. Thanks Bill. :thup:

My point was that it was not collectible and he would not lose much if it didn't work out.

Jim

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I knew what you meant Jim. ;)

'Collectible' or not, I was trying to make the point of not throwing any WWII period type of any web gear in a washing machine and hoping to have it 'look better' after a well meaning blunder - It won't look better by any means, and might very well destroy it completely at the age this web gear is now. The old threading has deteriorated from age, even though they're holding together nicely now. I just couldn't imagine throwing a piece of History in a washing machine and putting it through tough washing cycles. (Cycles meant to remove stains)

It's not just utility web gear at this point in history. Even non-collectible vintage WWII gear is hard to find these days and should be preserved for future generations.

Just wanted to make the point to NEVER throw any of it in a washing machine hoping for a happy result. Even it the item makes it through, most markings will be gone, and the fabric won't hold the old dyes now and most ink markings such as 'US' stamps will be gone or severely faded. Even if it survived a washing machine, the original canvas fabric will a have 'fuzzy' texture and look nothing like it did before.

I have some very good items too, and I wouldn't even take a chance of dry cleaning them, though I trust Bill.
(I know Bill wouldn't even dry clean them these days, unless the gear was in very bad shape)

It's difficult to find any WWII web gear that's authentic and not worn out. I've been really irked so much seeing good quality web gear someone tried to make 'look better' and destroyed it forever by throwing it in a washing machine.

Bill's idea of dry cleaning is good. I find very little gear anymore, except some soiled items with poor markings left. (The times have changed for sure Jim)
I might try picking up some of these items and see if dry cleaning restores them in any way. Bad thing is that even these old items that I wouldn't have even considered several years ago are selling for a lot, and don't look to be collector quality to me.

I learned the lesson the hard way. Circa 1975-77 I purchased several hundred used M1 Rifle web slings, which were quite dirty. I removed the removable metal parts and put them in my washer. When they were done the dirt was gone, but they were all very frayed. The webbing had hanging lines and was rough to look at.

In those days a used sling would sell for 50 cents to a dollar. These were so well frayed, I had to sell them 5/1.00. As far as appearance, they were ruined.

Shortly thereafter I stopped using the washer and relied on dry cleaning.

I have an original Type I pouch that was new when I got it. I have some Type IIs that are WW2 dated. The Khaki one is like new, but the other are in varying stages of "Used". One was washed prior to my getting it. Ink ran, colors uneven, and shrunk, too. I soaked it in hot water, put two mags in baggies in it to stretch it out, and let it dry. Still ugly, but works now.