Martini-Enfield Safety and Firing Issues

Hello Milsurp Gents!

This is my first post here, so I thought I'd start if off with a bang (or lack of). I own a Martini-Enfield Artillery Carbine Mk.II converted in 1898 to .303 and issued in 1899 to a pioneer division of the 3rd Lanarkshire Volunteer Rifles (Later to become part of the Cameronians). I stripped and inspected it, the bore is dark, no pitting and strong rifling. The barrel has quite a bit of pitting under the wood, along the knoxform reciever and along the barrel area. I had a friend of mine, a gunsmith, take a quick look at it and he said it should be safe to shoot, but I would like a second opinion on that. I took her to the range, loaded a commercial Federal .303 cartridge and pulled the trigger. Snap. No bang. The rifle dented the primer at the back but did not fire. I removed the cartridge after 30 seconds incase of hangfire. I took it home and have not shot it since. I disassembled the action block, cleaned it thouroughly, and re-assembled it. Apparently the bevelled hole in the action body was pointing the wrong way? I checked with an online manual.

My questions are:

1. Should I take the rifle to a gunsmith and have him inspect it thouroghly, and check the headspacing for me?

2. In your honest opinions, with the pitting evidenced on the rifle in the following picture link, is it safe to shoot? Why would it not shoot before? Any ideas?

Here is a link to the pictures:

Martini Enfield A C II 1898 pictures by Drachenblutt - Photobucket

Thank you,
Drachenblut

The pitting is insignifcant.

Post a picture of the the primer strike mark on the primer. Is it striking center?

Not striking center will misfires. This can be adjusted.

What beveled hole in the action body?

Do you you mean by any chance the slot in the striker? Wide side shoud be down.

Disassemble the breech block by removing the striker and striker spring. Re install just the breech block back in the action with out the striker and striker spring. Insert a cartridge in the action a close the action.

With a set of feeler gauges see if you can insert a combination of feeler gauges equalling .006 between the back of the chamber round and the face of the breech block.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tandard-15.jpg

If you can't, good! The head space for this carridge is good. If you can, try inserting a combination of .010. If you can then you have excess headspace for that cartridge. The rifle may also be out of head space, but this test only works for this cartridge. Different brands and lots will head space differently. So try a different cartridge.

If head space is correct and striker is right and hitting center, try again and get back to us

Hello,

I cannot take a picture as I disposed of the round. However, the striker was hitting far left and low, almost to the far South Western quadrant of the primer. How can I adjust this? I was told I would need a gunsmith to do metal machining work to correct the issue?
I meant the beveled slot in the striker, yes. I have taken it apart, cleaned it, and re-assembled with the larger side facing down towards the trigger assembly.
I will have to purchase some feeler gauges and try the bolt disassembly and remove the striker and spring, then trying the lock up. What if the feeler gauge I can get in is less than 0.06?
Thank you so far,
Drachenblut

Feeler gauges come in a set with multiple blades.

You didn't need to throw the round away it could have been recycled and in all likelyhood was still a good round from what you described.

Now that you have the striker correctly oriented, I would try firing the gun again. The gun may function just fine. Before you load the gun, take a magic marker and mark the head of the case with a dot. Load the round in the chamber. Align the dot so it is at 12 o'clock. Try to fire the gun. After firing or trying to fire take a picture of the firing pin indentation and I will tell you if it needs adjusted.

If it needs adjusted, I will provide you witht he instructions to take to you gunsmith for correction. It is a correction and not a major maching project.

Don't throw the cartridges away, put them in the mail and send them to me.

DoubleD,

Where are you located? Merely curious.
Onto the good news, I did as you suggested, removed the striker and spring, re-assembled the block, installed it, and inserted a round, closing the action. I took a newly bought feeler guide and it will not slip in at .006 (0.15mm) but it will at .004 (0.10mm)
Also, when re-installed, the firing pin protrudes from the block-face by 0.30 on a combination of feeler guides (0.25 +0.05).
I appologise for throwing the round, it just seemed to me that a dented primer in a still live round posed a hazard. Perhaps I am merely too cautious with ammunition.
I will try to fire the gun again, with the striker properly set up next chance I get. I will align the dot in the chamber. I will take a picture after that.
Thank you for your time and patience. I am still quite new at this.

Yours,
Drachenblut

1) LIve ammunition should not be thrown away. It should be properly dismantled (bullet pulled, powder removed, primer detonated). to avoid creating a hazard for anyone who picks it up under the erroneous impression that it is harmless.
2) It sounds like the striker is just not moving far enough forwards to detonate the primer. 0.30 seems marginal to me, as some of that movement is lost in pushing the case forwards until it is tight in the chamber. When I first handled my M-H, it would not have detonated a fly's fart.

The totally low-tech solution was to dismantle the block and firing mechanism completely, clean out the fossilized grease and other foreign matter (which included brass fragments!), then grease and reassemble. The firing pin now has a good solid whack instead of a soggy click. Try it, as I think that either your firing pin is too short (worn? broken?) or something is preventing it striking as far forwards as it should (about twice what you have measured).
M-Hs are very tough, so I would guess the latter to be the cause.

Patrick

Hello Patrick,

I have cleaned out the bolt completely, and I think the firing pin tip has been broken off, as it almost looks filed back to a "rounded" point. How could I fix this? Also, at the base of the firing pin is a fat attachment where it was (welded?) onto the plate for the striker. If this is an issue, I could always file a bit of that weld off to make it protrude a bit more. But a dryfire does sound like a heft "snap" and not a soggy "click" as you mentioned now that I have cleaned it. We shall see how it performs next I shoot it. Any other advice fellas?

Lets cross one bridge at a time.

What you describe was a low left hit on the primer. That will cause a misfire in the Martini. You can't tell anything until it hits closer to center. Lets get that corrected first. Even if protrusion is correct the gun will still misfire if not centered.

.30 protrusion is huge, that over a 1/4 inch!!! My Martini's are more in the range of .085 to .090. Modern smokeless rifles are more like.050 to .065.

Are you sure you are aren't seeing .025 plus .005? Thank might be significant. but lets get it hitting center first and see if there is still a problem.

I am in Montana.

Hello Double D. I lived in Montana for a spot, about 2 weeks in Helena. Nice country, loved it. Rolling glades and high steppes.

I mistook it, yes. It is 0.025 + 0.005. Sorry, buggered up on that one. Seems like it's rather short then eh?

I will see about it hitting center next time I get to the range, hopefully this coming week. I don't have a car but a friend does and I usually go with him, being my week off from University I can go midweek, so we'll see how she works out. Now, question, if the primer is hit off center, and the primer doesn't go, how safe is the round to handle. Last thing I want is to loose my blooming hand. Could it be the striker pin has broken at some point?

- Drachenblut

Put the round back in the box and save it for later. It is not dangerous to handle.

Got no idea what happend to the striker or that there is even anything wrong with it. Haven't seen it?

Post a picture of it.

I will post a picture tomorrow of the firing pin in the bolt block and outside of it. I did not know the rounds were safe to carry that way. Good to know.

Well, here are the pictures requested, I took as many possible angles as I could to demonstrate. Opinions? Is the firing pin broken off? Anything unusual?

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/...t/P2130001.jpg
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/...t/P2130002.jpg
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/...t/P2130003.jpg
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/...t/P2130005.jpg
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/...t/P2130009.jpg
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/...t/P2130010.jpg
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/...t/P2130011.jpg
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/...t/P2130012.jpg
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/...t/P2130013.jpg

Drachenblut

Thanks for the photo, Drachenblut. Please, don't take it personally, but your firing pin looks horrible! Too short, asymmetrical - I think it has been fudged up at some time - it surely never came out of the arsenal like that. As I have never had to correct a Martini firing pin I am not going to speculate on how to go about it - but I am sure that DoubleD knows how to fix it.

Patrick

Thank you anyways for the note Patrick. I'm not insulted. After all, this rifle only cost me just under a grand. Lovely to see it can't shoot. Really. Lovely. *Sigh* DoubleD I really hope you can help me out man.

Patrick has called this one, Yes horrible is a good word. But a simple fix and maybe even with that striker.

You will have a tough time finding another .303 striker, but one can be made from a .577/450 also. IMA sells replacement for the 577/450. British Martini-Henry Type III Striker: Unmarked - International Military Antiques

It should be a simple job for your gunsmith to turn one down to fit.

I will need all the instructions please, that I can just take to my gunsmith and hand it over. If you could DoubleD, it is CherniakKoeck@hotmail.com for e-mail, if you could write up the instructions I would be really appreciated! I will see about getting the striker.

Get the striker from IMA and take to your gunsmith and have him fit.

If he can not fit it, go to Martini Related Links and look for gunsmiths... David Kaiser would be my first choice for this work.

Here are the instruction for adjusting the striker height.

MH, Block striker adjustments - Gunsmithing - Old Guns - British Militaria Forums - Message Board Yuku

I live in Canada, he lives in IA, I do not think I can ship a gun part accross the border.

When you say "have him fit" I do not understand what that means... I would just take him the striker, and the bolt, and tell him "make this fit together please?

He would sand/shave the firing pin down in circumference?

If you could give me detailed instructions to give him, That'd be great! He's the sort who says "so what EXACTLY do you want me to do here"

You don't need to know what to do, the gunsmith does.

If your gunsmith has to have written instruction to figure out how to fit the part then you need to find a different smith.

He's going chuck it up in his lathe reduce the diameter of the tip so it fits your block.

As to adjusting the striker height, print out the instructions from the link I gave you above and take that to him. That he may not know how to do that unless he has done a lot of work with Martini's.

Allright. Once the part from IMA comes in, I will take it to my gunsmith and get it installed, and the block fitted for firing pin. Hopefully it will not cost me over 200 dollars.

I'm going to be dealing with Wortner's in Chatham, if you've ever heard of them.

If it is going to be replaced, Why not cut the tip off the old one, Drill and tap a hole in the center, put in a bolt, cut it to length then chuck it in a lathe or drill press and work it down to size?
jonh

Because the old striker has already been cut down and part of the tapered boss has been butchered it needs replaced.

It is an easy process to retip one of these that has broke off. Simply face off the old striker, drill a hole and solder the smooth end of the drill in the hole. Cut the drill end off to length and round the tip.

Never heard of Wortners and can not comment on there prices...but if I still had my shop I wouldn't charge much more than $30-$40 if that much to turn down the striker.

Realigning the the breech block would cost a bit more.

Now, what would happen if I had them "turn down" (wow neat terms, I suppose that means remove diameter/thickness?) the new striker, and just installed it into my bolt, will I necessarily NEED to have it aligned? I know it sounds cheap but being a University student without a job really burns the pocket books.

Now, question, if I took a hacksaw, cut the striker tip flat at the base, used a crap drill bit and drilled into the spot where the striker had been, get the bit "stuck" in the metal and just cut the drillbit off to a certain length and smoothed it down a bit with file/sandpaper, would that work?

Good news. I am in contact with the fellow who sold me the rifle. He has agreed to send me a new striker from a parts Martini-Enfield of his here in Canada in a day or two for free, with appologies for the non-functionality with the rifle. I will post a picture of the pin before he ships it on here to confirm it's what I need.

Cheers,
Drachenblut

Yes, it would work.

Essentialy that is the procedure that I would use. I would probably work on it chucked in a lathe simply because of the need to be accurate and drill that pin hole positiioned and aligned with the hole in the block.

Your striker has been repaired once before, you will need to cut back a bit. My concern might be a long unsupported firing pin, but drill steel is quite tough and strong.

But in all honesty, I would probably use that striker as fishing sinker and get myself a replacement.

You have a project that you can fix yourself by finding replacement parts, no smithing involved. That is yet another thing I love about these old rifles, they were manufactured to high standards with regards to dimensions and parts interchangeability. Parts are around, you should be able to find a 303 striker, you might have to hunt hard and long, but it is all part of the hobby. Fix it up and then get your smith to give it a double check.

You have a very nice example of an 1888 Martini Enfield 303 Aritillery Carbine II. From an investment point of view, a repaired part is still a repaired part no matter how well done. I would recommend that you find the proper make and model of replacement part, otherwise you will hurt its value with home made repairs. It is worth spending money on.

Your rifle still has its unit info intact and this gives it significant collector interest as one could research this rifle's history. It is a collectable antique, so much will be added to this specimin's value if it is 100% functional with properly marked authentic Enfield parts.

Start over.

As I recall from the start of this thread you had the striker upside down to start with. Get the new striker and test fire. Lets see where we are.

Hello Englishman, good to see you on the other side of the CGN hill *grins*

I spoke to the gent I bought the rifle from and he has offered to send me a Martini-Enfield striker from a parts artillery carbine he had sitting about. For free at that! I asked for pictures of the striker, and he sent them too me. Let me know if it looks OK. Seems fine to me, and it's about 3/10 inch longer than mine :P

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/...t/DSC02069.jpg

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/...t/DSC02068.jpg

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/...t/DSC02067.jpg

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/...t/DSC02066.jpg

Ya, looks good. Ask for the complete breech block assembly to try fit. Your primer strike is currently low and to the left, something that might still need to be addressed even with a new striker fitted. The pic of the firing pin hole in the face of the parts gun breechblock looks to be better aligned.

If it is from a parts artillery carbine, it is probably a good match and maybe correctly marked too.

The replacement striker looks like a turned down pin.

Well, it hopefully will work without a hitch when I install it into my bolt, God willing and the creek don't rise. :)

All you can do is try, and the price is right.

OT, but around these here parts its Creek w/ a capital "C". As in the "Native" American tribe that didn't take too kindly to the new invaders...especially when the new guys wanted to run off the current residents!

It may help explain the "don't" versus the "doesn't" that doesn't make sense otherwise. "Another bit of useless info..."

Interesting notion. I'll keep it in mind. Let us hope my part will work, it should arrive by tomorrow or day after and I should be able to give a range report come Friday. Let us hope the Martini does not decide to give up the ghost and take mine! :P Those pits look nasty to me on the outside, and pushing 46,000 PSI or some such is ALOT of pressure on compromised metal... it was mentioned here that the pitting is insignificant. Why?

Because it just doesn't matter as long as its on the outside. If it was deep enough to matter, the rifle would be surely U/S in other ways as well.

Of course, if the outside were to meet the inside via a few pits, that might compromise things a bit...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmoore

OT, but around these here parts its Creek w/ a capital "C". As in the "Native" American tribe that didn't take too kindly to the new invaders...especially when the new guys wanted to run off the current residents!

It may help explain the "don't" versus the "doesn't" that doesn't make sense otherwise. "Another bit of useless info..."

---

And all this time I thought that was a colloquial saying expressing hope it didn't flood.

When you look at pits consider that dovetails and sight screw hole are often .100 deep. That's a deep rust pit!

"Lord be willing and the crick don't rise."
Along the Susquehanna River, it most definitely is about hoping the water isn't gonna come over the dike.
Great thread to read through. Always something to learn.
Pete





i

Not to jack my own thread, LOL. But good news! I worked with my shop teacher, and we cut off the tip, and used a drill bit to make a new pin. It looks fine. The only problem is I need to file it down and I do not know EXACTLY what protrusion length I need. Right now it reads about 0.068 on my combo feeler gauges protruding from the breech block face. I need to know how far back to file it. Should I leave it as a flat-topped cylindar or file it into a rounded "point"? I don't want to punch through the primer, I hear that's really dangerous.

Here are pictures!

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/...t/P3040001.jpg
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/...t/P3040002.jpg

Nose needs to be rounded

You nee three things:
A fine-cut diamond file (often sold as a "diamond lap"). Such a file is very useful for smoothing off burrs on trigger parts, FUBARed screw heads and the like.

A watchmaker's eyeglass (also a basic "must have") to examine the work as it progresses, noting the old saying "it is easy to file it off, but difficult to file it back on again".

And finally, patience. Wet the diamond file with oil and wipe off the tip frequently, to check progress with the eyeglass. The tip must be rounded off, to avoid sharp edges, but most definitely NOT pointed. Use that vital eyeglass to examine good examples from any bolt-action rifle to see what is needed. And with a fine-cut diamond file you can get a surface that looks almost polished to the naked eye.

Good luck!

Patrick

Patrick. Thanks for the info... how much can I expect to pay for those tools? I am a poor University student on a rather tight budget. I suppose this old metal file I found in a barn won't do eh?

I hope this works, I've tanked alot of time and effort into this pin just to get the thing to shoot. Might as well have been the field armorour.

Now a question, why does the nose have to be rounded?

Sharp corner will cut the primer cup and increase the chance for pierced primers.

Could you possibly post a picture of how rounded it should look? What tool should I use for this? What does a pierced primer look like?

Drachenbut, if you can afford M-H cases and a reloading die set, maybe a bullet mould, then you can probably afford a diamond lap file and an adequate eyeglass for about 30 euros.

(NOTE to moderators: It would be useful, and surely not a grave breach of personal security, to know at least in which country contributors are located!)


Apologies: I take it all back! Maybe you can't afford it BECAUSE you got the M-H cases and a reloading die set:lol: When I got my Egyptian Rolling block, the rifle came "free" with the RCBS die set. And I have a M-H. And a Mauser 1871. All rather expensive for brass! But those old smoke poles are eye-catchers at the range, so crack your piggy-ban and persevere!

Getting serious again: good tooling is worth it in saved time, effort and ammo!

Patrick

Well, Pat. I will see about it. Worst comes, I can take it to my gunsmith and have him round it and test it. Who thought it'd be so sensitive!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

(NOTE to moderators: It would be useful, and surely not a grave breach of personal security, to know at least in which country contributors are located!)

---

The information field for Location is available in the Member Profile. Click on any member's name and a drop down box appears. You'll see a link option that says View Public Profile.

That will show you a lot of information about the member including his location, which also appears under his name in thread posts.

Unfortunately, to protect privacy, it has been made optional by the software developers and only has content showing a location if the member has completed that particular field.

If it is blank, one way to get an idea as to where a member is located is to check the world map, also located under each member's profile. It shows the time zone they're in and does give some indication as to their geographic location that way.

We'll look into other options to see if there's a way of handling this that works for everyone. :thup:

Thanks for the feedback … :cheers:

Regards,
Badger

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drachenblut

Could you possibly post a picture of how rounded it should look? What tool should I use for this? What does a pierced primer look like?

---

It should be spherical and the diameter of the striker. Look at the end of decapping pin in relaoding die.

Pierced primer is just that a hole in primer, through which gas can escape when the cartridge is fired...not good.

Rounding the tip can be done done by holding the striker in a drill press and holding some fine sand paper against the tip

Sure, will do. I'll see about doing that at my school when I can get access to some machinery. Being a university student I don't often have the money or tools to do this sort of stuff. I will try the sandpaper though. I will post my results

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

(NOTE to moderators: It would be useful, and surely not a grave breach of personal security, to know at least in which country contributors are located!)

---

Here's another option if the member is currently on-line .. ;)

Check the Who is On-line Display (click here) and it shows the country of the member, using Geo-tagging based upon the IP address they're logged in with.

Regards,
Badger

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Drachenbut, if you can afford M-H cases and a reloading die set, maybe a bullet mould, then you can probably afford a diamond lap file and an adequate eyeglass for about 30 euros.

(NOTE to moderators: It would be useful, and surely not a grave breach of personal security, to know at least in which country contributors are located!)


Apologies: I take it all back! Maybe you can't afford it BECAUSE you got the M-H cases and a reloading die set:lol: When I got my Egyptian Rolling block, the rifle came "free" with the RCBS die set. And I have a M-H. And a Mauser 1871. All rather expensive for brass! But those old smoke poles are eye-catchers at the range, so crack your piggy-ban and persevere!

Getting serious again: good tooling is worth it in saved time, effort and ammo!

Patrick

---

If you read his post, you'd have noticed it's a Martini-ENFIELD in .303 calibre. He didn't need M-H brass and dies. :p

Oops! Got carried away by my youthful enthusiasm again! I plead temporary derangement as a result of spending hours reforming 24 gauge shotshells into M-H cartridge cases. Make that trying to reform...

Patrick