Printable View
I'd be interested in folks' opinions about
ENFIELD No.4 Mk I 1 (T) WWII SNIPER RIFLE W/ SCOPE : Bolt Action at GunBroker.com
The rifle and scope have the same number. Never heard of that before.
The S51 is only S5, not even a ghost of a "1".
The mount is unnumbered. Are the screws right? No sign of staking. Repro?
The mag follower is Savage.
Anyone see anything else?
Opinions eagerly sought!
Cheers.
The following is my 2 minute first impression:
HIGHLY unlikely. (ETA Never's not allowed w/ Enfields, but this might be an exception!):lol:
Lots of work to make a mess. If the scope's OK, buy it. I wouldn't pay for the rest.
Dig the crazy bracket, man! The whole things like a bad trip, man!
Whoo, gotta go to work before something odd happens....
First rifle I've seen that the scope serial number was the rifle number. Smells of a fish. The rifle serial numbers are way to large, way to legible, look like they're professionally applied (a real give away:the one armed drunk apprentice stamper never got them that nice). The rough finish on the receiver, looks of bead blasting and reparking or something....
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravityfan
M47c = BSA shirley.
T25402 = Fazakerey serial Number
these stamps cannot be seen on the same rifle ( without some suspicion )
complete Savage magazine.
And I suppose you could also say, along with a lot of other things, that a mk3 scope wouldn't be 'native' to a 1943 rifle.
DO NOT TAKE POSSESION OF THIS RIFLE's RECEIVER.
I'm not a lawyer, but you may need one if the receiver ends up in your hands.
Danger!
ATF doesn't care for such shenanigans...
That has the work FAKE written all over it in my humble opinion
It's a good fake in some ways - ie easy to spot. What a blunder re the 'matching' numbers though - if you're going to do a fake at least do your research!
Wow ... :eek:
Just a very quick look as we're on our way out, but it has some things that I don't understand .... :confused:
As gravityfan pointed out, the same serial number for both rifle and scope?
Also ...
S5 instead of Holland & Holland marking of S51 .. typo?
I've also never seen a No.32 Mk3 scope without the red W (waterproof) and the blue B (anti bloom) paint?
Regards,
Badger
Given how unusual this item appears to me, I thought I'd save the auction details and pics here in this thread for posterity ... ;)
Quote:
Description for Item # 157604699
ENFIELD No.4 Mk I 1 (T) WWII SNIPER RIFLE W/ SCOPE : Bolt Action at GunBroker.com
ENFIELD No.4 MkI MK1 (T) WWII SNIPER RIFLE W/ SCOPE 1943 all matching including bolt, receiver, butt stock fore stock and scope!!. original phosphate bluing is 95% and finish on the wood as well, I oiled the stock so it appears shiny in some pics! The wood is excellent . All markings are as expected for an Enfield No.4 Mk 1 (T) that was chosen to be a sniper and then converted. The Scope is the correct No.32 Mk III The mount is not numbered . Optics are clear with the windage and elevation knobs working perfectly. bore is sharp and shiny!! not import marked. this came out of an ESTATE OF ENFIELD COLLECTOR ALONG WITH 15 OTHER ENFIELD RIFLES HE HAD BEEN COLLECTING FOR OVER 50 YEARS there are over 40 pictures so it may take sometime to load up 7 day inspection i'll pay shipping both ways if your not happy shipping is 40.00 in the con usa add 20.00 for a hard case jimsgunshop@aol.com 201-803-3501
Plenty of scopes w/o the "W" or "B" floating around.
Aside from the scope and -possibly- the pads and other parts there's nothing good here!
Alteration or obliteration of a firearm's S/N is a federal offense, (US) guys.
Thanks .. :thup:Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
Can you tell I'm a K98k collector? :lol:
Also, is that a S for Savage rear sight?
Edit: Looking at a different pic, I guess that's an SM for Singer, not just an S for Savage... :lol:
Regards,
Badger
I have seen the S51 mark going across the knuckle of the butt instead of the more normal along the butt on a genuine rifle. Genuine because it was still attached to an Army L42! Ironically, I have the original 51 stamps from H&H but couldn't find the letter S. So if he needs the '1' stamp, I'm your man!
Not all Mk3 telescopes have the red W/waterproof or B/Bloomed lens marks. The blooming was easy to remove during normal cleaning and especially when we polished the lenses with jewellers rough polish. When the blooming was removed, we simply rubbed away the letter B. The actual W relates to the type of DRUM. If the drum has a fibre or neoprene O ring between the index plate and the bush, it is a W telescope (supposedly (?) ) waterproof and marked with the red W. But if it has drums without the O ring, then you'd never get it waterproof in a thousand years so it wasn't marked.
The W saga got quite complicated in Malaya/Far East where they ALL had to be waterproof to the extent that even the Mk2's were waterproofed by modifications. The little desiccation screw on a Mk2 was a good indication of its W status and Malaya origins. Does anyone have such a beast?
Maybe this is the sign of another forum article to come....... after the butt thread patching and rectifying the fore-end tie bolt hole.... There's not enough hours in the day.......
While whatever I could have added has been written, and more, there was one stamp on this rifle I have a question about. It's the ENGLAND stamp. In my notes I have "Question a (T) with the ENGLAND stamp?". This must have been concerning a remark I read that I wanted to research, but haven't. Any thoughts?
BTW, it may have to do with when the stamp was used, 1968 and earlier and when the (T)s were SOS, or at least the bulk of them.
TIA, Brad
Most all of mine have "ENGLAND" unless they have the weird little cipher stamps that is also on the receiver ring (RH side) of the rifle in question.
PLEASE, please, please, a thousand times, DO NOT let a different makers magazine, backsight or whatever put you off because, as I've said a zillion times, Armourers didn't care what parts they used or re-used. It went back into circulation working. In fact, Armourers that I talk too cannot believe what they're hearing when I tell them what I read about having all the 'correct' parts or questioning them. Listen.......... in the Armourers shop, the parts that are suppled by Ordnance or are on the shelf are ALL the correct parts. So if it's a BSA rifle and it's got a Savage magazine and it works properly, then that's the way it left the Armourers shop.
In this case, the rifle is a real one, the telescope is real but the bits that join the two together are fake
Its the rifle's serial number that's not real!
Looks like someone got busy without doing their research. IF the butt is original, the real serial number might be found on the tongue, but in view of the obviously bogus S51 or S5 in this case, that's probably hoping for too much.
Too bad, looks like it was a genuine rifle at one point.
He'd best part it out and hope for the best.
A good police forensics lab could probably recover the original serial number.
phosphate bluing?????????????? Nuf said.
Looks like he may have done a bit more than "Oil the stock to maker it look shiny." Then again I am no expert, I defer to those that are.
Giving away too much information just makes the fakers smarter next time. Five guys saying its a fake is safer than giving all the reasons why. mhopinion.
It looks like someone coughed up $2800 and bought the thing. I'm afraid he's in for a big disappointment when (if) he begins asking about it on the various forums.
I have looked at a lot of "T" rifles and have never seen one marked like this. Someone went to a lot of work to make a fake. I don't get the obvious mistakes. I would like to have his stamp sets.
Hey, thanks everyone for your input. Turned out to be an excellent thread.
Kicking myself for not noticing that it was a Faz s/n. Doh!
I guess the buyer must be a dealer - 880 feedback on GB and 65 items currently on sale. Wonder if he realises. Wonder how he will describe it when selling it on.
Anyone know Vito?
I think what may have happened is someone with a correct (T) figured out that with a matching scope = More $$, and figured the way to do it was by stamping the rifle, not knowing how the real ones were done. My hypothesis, FWIW.
Quote:
Originally Posted by madcratebuilder
Hmmmm. Some more close ups of the receiver would have been nice.
-Would echo the obvious phoney 'S5' stamp on the obviously replacement woodwork.
-Wood looks to be birch to me, when would almost certainly have been walnut on a BSA by 1943.
- Mk3 looks ok but clearly a mis-match, as has already been stated, on a 43 rifle.
- Bracket just could be a grossly mutilated original 'improved' by Bubba at some point. Academic really as it's worthless now either way.
- Rifle has obviously been re-serial stamped on the butt socket, presumably by an incompetent faker who thinks that a matching kit means having the same number on your scope as your rifle. HOWEVER, I do think the basic receiver of the rifle may be a genuine T. Difficult to say for certain, but the look & fit of the pads looks right, & judging by our expert's handiwork I think if he'd fitted the pads himself it would be readily apparent....
- I understand a number of gutted T's ended up in the States about 10-12 years ago; essentially barrelled actions that needed a complete rebuild. I just wonder if this could be one of those rifles......?
- Just my .02c.
ATB