ShtLE MK v 1923

My husband and I picked up an Enfield each.. both had already been altered. My No. 4 MK I* Longbranch had been drilled and tapped for a scope ( I don't know why).. so no use in re-glorifying it..

However.. my husband's ShtLE MK V 1923 has good metal with no damage. But we need several pieces to put it back together to original looking.. full stock with bands, cutoff plate and screw, sling, and missing all but the sight on the barrel.

We'll be watching ebay and gunbroker.com for parts, but know it won't be easy finding them for this gem.

Any ideas where to look on a pauper's wages?

Also, would like to find a military manual for it on line.. found one for my no. 4 but there just doesn't seem to be much out there for the MK V.

Is it a Mk5 trials rifle or a Mk3 your asking about, you mention "all but the sight on the barrel", is this the forsight or the rear sight? as the rear sight on the Mk5 is in the same place as the No4.

There are a couple of ex Enfield engineers who make replica parts for the Mk5here in the UK.

The No.1 Mark V is a great rifle to start a collection with :)

If you could post some pictures of the rifle i'm sure we'll be able to give you some pointers on what is needed and where you can find it.

In the meantime, here is a link to a company in England where they make reproduction parts for the No.1 Mark V

http://www.efdrifles.com/

There were only about 20,000 of these rifles made between 1922-1924.

Check the England - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here)

Yours is a 1923, whereas the one in the library is a 1924 ShtLE (Short Lee-Enfield) No.1 MkV Rifle (Mfg by RSAF Enfield).

Examine the 117 picture photo montage, which might help you with some of your questions.

Regards,
Badger

Thank you.

It's what I believe they call a no. 1 MK V .. I've heard there are trials guns and production done at the same time???

The rear sight is on there.. goes to 1400 yds. I read somewhere that the "trials" went to 1500 yds.. some of what we read is confusing.

And I meant that with all the hardware on the muzzle end of the barrel, the only thing there is the front sight.. I don't know what the "wings" are called or anything else that goes on the front.

I'll try to get a pic out soon.

Also tried emailing the efdrifles but it came back undeliverable, so was unsure of this site. used the info@ addy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bomar97

The rear sight is on there.. goes to 1400 yds. I read somewhere that the "trials" went to 1500 yds.. some of what we read is confusing.

And I meant that with all the hardware on the muzzle end of the barrel, the only thing there is the front sight.. I don't know what the "wings" are called or anything else that goes on the front.

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Again, check the photo montage pic by pic against your rifle and I think you'll have a much better idea what is and isn't missing... ;)

Pics would be good ... :thup:

Examples ..

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG


http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG

Regards,
Badger

Talk to Brian at BDL
BDL LTD Rifles and Accessories
He's a forum sponser and really knows a thing or two about LE's!:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bomar97

My husband and I picked up an Enfield each.. both had already been altered. My No. 4 MK I* Longbranch had been drilled and tapped for a scope ( I don't know why).. so no use in re-glorifying it..

However.. my husband's ShtLE MK V 1923 has good metal with no damage. But we need several pieces to put it back together to original looking.. full stock with bands, cutoff plate and screw, sling, and missing all but the sight on the barrel.

We'll be watching ebay and gunbroker.com for parts, but know it won't be easy finding them for this gem.

Any ideas where to look on a pauper's wages?

Also, would like to find a military manual for it on line.. found one for my no. 4 but there just doesn't seem to be much out there for the MK V.

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Can be done for a reasonable amount if you dont want original wood.(post some pics of what you have)
Below is a SMLE No1 Mk V that was sporterised (butchered) i also require the rear sight and a barrel + wood, I have been looking for a year (for original woodwork) as rare as hens teeth.
EFD in the UK do parts at a very reasonable price, the most expensive part you have which is the sight. I also need to rebarrel, due to the previous owners work carried out on the action , i will be relining a .303 barrel to .22LR, or may even use a .308 barrel and chamber to .30 M1 carbine.


Parts that were good to go, the barrel has good rifling but too short and not the original.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

Close up of barrel, and action the that bubba had filed the breaching up ring to the same profile as the barrel also it was drilled for a mount.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

action after work completed on the breaching up ring, and fitted with an original mag cut off. you can see the outline of the stud used to plug the threaded hole for a mount (not my work) the outside did not blue the same as the inner due to being case hardened.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

This how it has remained, like you am looking out for the timber , all other bits i have.
They are an interesting and rare rifle, but not a great deal of info on them.

Hi Bomar, Big Duke and others. There is a whole raft of information on the No1 Mk5 held at the Small Arms School at Warminster. I don't know where you both live but maybe you could get together, come down, spend a couple of days and write the whole lot down for future forumers. I'll point you in the right direction. We have three originals handy so bring your cameras and I have had a browse through the docs and fed tid-bits into the forum but I'm not interested enough in them to do any more!

I forgot to tell you earlier, but the No1 Mk5 chassis so to speak was the basis on which the original No1 Mk6 cruciform bayonet was designed/shaped. There, another useless bit of Enfield info for you

Is the small arms school at Warminster open to the public, or is an invitation required? Also is the same true of the MOD pattern room?

NOT open to the public but it can be open to individuals by agreement ..., like if you know someone there! So what's bloody keeping you? (that's what the visit Australia adverts say here in the land of the poms)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

NOT open to the public but it can be open to individuals by agreement ..., like if you know someone there! So what's bloody keeping you? (that's what the visit Australia adverts say here in the land of the poms)

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Don't retire until the wife and I get there from Canada next year ... :lol:

Thanks Peter... very gracious of you ... :super:

Regards,
Doug (Badger)

Hey Peter, make sure you've got some work to do for Badger and his lovely wife! Especially Badger since he's a 98K collector, lol! Brian

Thanks for the invite but more than a hop, skip and jump for us.. U.S. that is..
I'm going to take a pic of the rifle tomorrow, I hope.. things are a bit busy but tomorrow have to sit around waiting for the appliance repairman.. so should have some time.

Highly reccommend Warminister ( the collection is damm good as well the bibles are priceless) The people well some are good, very good and exceptional then there is a bloke with a warped sense of humour who seems to know a little about alot. ( make sure you give him heaps) could almost make him an honouray AUSSIE, well ok.

bomar97 - re your earlier post regarding EFD Rifles in the UK. My company maintains the EFD website and I see you've had trouble with the info@efdrifles.com email address. I've checked and it definitely works, so I can't explain why your message was returned. Jim and Geoffrey are most certainly still in business and are a useful source of repro and original parts for the Mk V. Send them another email. I spoke to them yesterday and they are both keen to help.....

bomar97

I've sent you a PM.

Thank you. I'll send an email as soon as I regroup.. Been busy with other issues..
Also picked up an ATI stock for my Enfield ( no.4 mk I* Longbranch).. had been drilled and tapped when I got it.. so just want to fix that one up with a stock for hunting w/ scope.. having problems with the forearm fitting and waiting for help from ATI staff today.
I know you guys hate sporterizing.. but this one I've been told is a waste of $$ to put back to original so am at least fixing it up to be usable by me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bomar97

Thank you.

It's what I believe they call a no. 1 MK V .. I've heard there are trials guns and production done at the same time???

The rear sight is on there.. goes to 1400 yds. I read somewhere that the "trials" went to 1500 yds.. some of what we read is confusing.

And I meant that with all the hardware on the muzzle end of the barrel, the only thing there is the front sight.. I don't know what the "wings" are called or anything else that goes on the front.

I'll try to get a pic out soon.

Also tried emailing the efdrifles but it came back undeliverable, so was unsure of this site. used the info@ addy.

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Bomar 97,

Take a look at item number two of the Collectors Comments and Feedback section at the end of the article Badger recommended. There you will find photographs answering the first two points you raised.

The regular production run of some 20,000-odd, No. 1 Mk V rifles, ran from 1922-24, but, the actual Trials rifles were made several years before that period. The confusion stems from those that erroneously insist on calling this production run, "trials" rifles, in my opinion.

The photos mentioned will show that what you read is correct. The rear sights of the regular production run Mk V rifles went to 1400 yards, while the Trials rifle's rear sight was indeed calibrated to 1500 yards, the different position of the index line on the ladder of the Trials rifle accounting for difference.

Terry

Just for the heck of it, I have 2294 without the letter.........

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Terry Hawker

Bomar 97,

Take a look at item number two of the Collectors Comments and Feedback section at the end of the article Badger recommended. There you will find photographs answering the first two points you raised.

The regular production run of some 20,000-odd, No. 1 Mk V rifles, ran from 1922-24, but, the actual Trials rifles were made several years before that period. The confusion stems from those that erroneously insist on calling this production run, "trials" rifles, in my opinion.

The photos mentioned will show that what you read is correct. The rear sights of the regular production run Mk V rifles went to 1400 yards, while the Trials rifle's rear sight was indeed calibrated to 1500 yards, the different position of the index line on the ladder of the Trials rifle accounting for difference.

Terry

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Thank you. I never saw anything as to when the trial guns were made. It's clear that this one is indeed a production run.
I really am planning to get a pic up.. honest!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bomar97

Thank you. I never saw anything as to when the trial guns were made. It's clear that this one is indeed a production run.
I really am planning to get a pic up.. honest!

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bomar97,

Reading the sections on the Trials Mk V's in Skennerton's books is, admittedly, a bit confusing as to the dates and number of Mk III's so converted, but, if you take a magnifying glass to his photo comparing a Trials rifle to one from the production run, you will see the Trials rifle was made from a 1915 Mk III.

If you zoom in on the Trials rifle I referred you to at the end of the MKL article, you will see that rifle was also converted from a 1915 Enfield Mk III. (I really should retake those photos.) Examination of both sets of photos reveals more dings in the fore-end, as well as a missing rear aperture for the long-range dial sight on the rifle in Skennerton's photos, thus proving they are, indeed, different rifles.

At this point in time, these photos are of the only two examples of the Trials rifles known to exist, (don't even know if the Skennerton rifle still exists, as the photos were originally just credited, "Old Photographs..."), as even the old Pattern Room Collection doesn't have a specimen, but, the photos do tend to bolster my personal feeling that the Mk III rifles converted into Mk V Trials rifles were probably taken from those in production at the time, that is, in 1915 apparently.

Does anyone out there have another example we can use for corrobaration?

Terry

I think that I have clarified this point Terry. From our records at Warminster and the three original and untouched examples we have, there were two Mk5 projects. New build and conversion of existing stock. Could your pics have come from Warminster?

I often say that the Mk5 needs a full and detailed review/research. I'm too busy/uninterested but if anyone wants to come and do the research I'd point them in the right direction.

Speaking of No1 Mk5's....

Some years ago I saw a drawing at Lithgow showing the outline of the Mk V forging overlaid against a M3 receiver. If my notes are correct, it is "D4479" titled "Rifle, SMLE, Mk V/C"

I know that the various Commonwealth factories exchanged information on a regular basis, but does anyone know the scale of the Mk5 proposal?

Also It can it be entirely coincidental that the aperture sight for the Aust. No6 has a definite Mk5 influence?

Peter,

We touched on this subject before, and, at that time, I believe Warren and Paul got into the discussion as well, but first, could you please clarify something for me?

Are the three, untouched examples you have there at Warminster, actually Mk V Trials Rifles, or, are they examples from the regular production run? The common habit of those that really should know better, (present company excluded), in calling the 20,000-odd production run, "trials rifles", generates a ton of confusion, as it would seem to ignore those rifles in the developmental stages that preceeded the production run...That is, the true Trials Rifles.

The Trials Rifles have so many differences from the production rifles that there can be no mistaking the two models. According to the only two examples of Trials Rifles we have photos of so far, they were built on regular Enfield production, Sht L.E., Mk III receivers, made in 1915. The fore-ends are standard Mk III items also, including the long range sight dial plate, but with a Mk V-type rear handguard. The most obvious differences between the Trials Rifles and the production run rifles are the shape of the rear sight supporting block and the rear sight itself. As mentioned earlier, the rear sight is graduated to 1,400 yards on the production rifle, but 1,500 yards on the Trials. On the Trials Rifle in the MKL article, the rear sight has a tiny "5" stamped on the inside of the leaf, obviously suggesting that there were at least five of these sights made. This rifle also has a unique long range rear sight aperture arm, formed with a bend in the arm, to clear the equally unique, convex, fully-ribbed safety, (Bolt, locking). Referring to the previously mentioned MKL article photos will bring clarity on these differences.

As far as your point about the two Mk V projects is concerned, one for conversions of existing stock and another for "new builds", I have no doubt you are correct. I'm guessing that by making that statement you are implying that the two Trials Rifles are actually part of the project to convert existing stock. If so, I would have to ask, why are these two rifles so different from all the rest? Did this conversion project only create two rifles? If not where are all the rest? If these two rifles were part of a government conversion project, why do they still bear the markings of their first incarnation? A new model still stamped with an incorrect model number? Can't imagine that passing muster! No, I think you will find these two rifles are really as I said, real Trials Rifles.

On page 188 of Skennerton's "The Lee-Enfield", you will notice that Ian changed the caption of the comparison photos from the one he had in "The Lee-Enfield Story". Now the same photos, showing the Trials Rifle above the production model states, "Trials Mk V at top with eventual production model at bottom." Now the photo is credited to Reg Chapman. Whether that means it is Reg's photo, or his rifles, I have no idea.

As far as the "new build" Mk V's are concerned, I noticed on my production Mk V's, that in the right light, an outline of a round receiver can be seen at the rear of the action, leading me to a speculation, (later supported in that previous discussion by one of our much more knowledable collectors), that even the "new build" Mk V's were actually built up on new, but identical receivers, as the Mk III, (the process having been streamlined a bit since the Trials Rifles were converted.)

To answer your question, Peter, no my photos didn't come from Warminster. They came from my balcony. I think I could do a better job on the lighting now.

Thanks for bearing with me on this rather long post.

Best Regards,

Terry

Hi Terry, phew.................! So many questions, so little time and interest!As I said, this subject really needs to be looked at in depth. Our rifles are there for all to see as are the original trials reports. We have three untouched and therefore highly original Mk5's whereas those Mk5's out in the big wide world will have or COULD have been set about by owners in the past so immediately, the issue becomes clouded.

Why don't a few of you get together and come over. They're as original as you are likely to ever get

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Hi Terry, phew.................! So many questions, so little time and interest!As I said, this subject really needs to be looked at in depth. Our rifles are there for all to see as are the original trials reports. We have three untouched and therefore highly original Mk5's whereas those Mk5's out in the big wide world will have or COULD have been set about by owners in the past so immediately, the issue becomes clouded.

Why don't a few of you get together and come over. They're as original as you are likely to ever get

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Have been plannining to get to Warminster for sometime, Had a good oppertunity recently but due to being off work and having travel restrictions had to shelve it.

Back at work from yesterday, with a new medical certificate and restricted to coastal waters, As Warminster is within these, started the ball rolling by Knocking up a letter to the, Officer I C , Peter has advised in a past PM i will need security clearance ( Dont know if this has something to do with being a scouser) ?

I hope to get there within the next few months, if there is anyone interested in joining me please PM me, (many hands make light work).

Ah, big mistake big duke. Don't write to the 'curator' as we're not a museum but a military training centre with a small collection of weapons that we use occasionally as and when the need arises. It's just the Oi/c! But you're welcome

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Hi Terry, phew.................! So many questions, so little time and interest!As I said, this subject really needs to be looked at in depth. Our rifles are there for all to see as are the original trials reports. We have three untouched and therefore highly original Mk5's whereas those Mk5's out in the big wide world will have or COULD have been set about by owners in the past so immediately, the issue becomes clouded.

Why don't a few of you get together and come over. They're as original as you are likely to ever get

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Peter,

I realize you are quite busy, and, as you say, have little interest in the subject, so I will whittle my questions down to the one that should uncloud the issue quite a bit.

Could you please take a moment to see if the rear sights on your original, untouched Mk V's are graduated to 1,500 yards or 1,400 yards?

Thanks,

Terry

Not in for a few days Terry, but will do. Interestingly, the conversion from existing stockpiles at 18 shillings (as opposed to 21 shillings for a new build...) if I remember correctly clearly uses most of the original components such as the fore-end.

Would a few photos help? Leave it with me..........................

Peter,

Photos would be most helpful, thanks so much for offering them.

The previous owner of the Mk V Trials rifle in the MKL article was well acquainted with dear old Herb at the Pattern Room, and, when they first discussed this rifle, Herb was hoping my friend would will it to the Pattern Room Collection, thus insuring they finally got an example. If even one of the Warminster Mk V's does indeed prove to be a Trials Rifle, you can bet Herb will be smiling down, content in the knowledge that there is still an example left in Britain.

Thanks again, Peter.

Best Regards,

Terry

I have one other such example. The question was:

Was the mod done before the production of Mark Vs, as a trial?

or

Was it done after Mark V production to ascertain if it were possible to convert Mark IIIs?

AFAIK the receiver is still in existence and looks very similar to the one at Warminster.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Enfieldlock

I have one other such example. The question was:

Was the mod done before the production of Mark Vs, as a trial?

or

Was it done after Mark V production to ascertain if it were possible to convert Mark IIIs?

AFAIK the receiver is still in existence and looks very similar to the one at Warminster.

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Enfieldlock,

This is great news!

Could we get a photo of the rear sight?

Regards,

Terry

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Terry Hawker

Enfieldlock,

This is great news!

Could we get a photo of the rear sight?

Regards,

Terry

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Typo in my prev post. I have SEEN one other............. However I know where it is. It did not have a rear sight.

I have two or three original back sights and I will check them out.

We make new back sights to the original drawings.

Enfieldlock,

In reference to your last two posts on this thread...Obviously I can have no opinion on the Mk V you saw, but, even missing the rear sight, the shape of the rear sight supporting block is a dead giveaway as to whether it is a Trials Rifle or not.

As far as your excellent question about whether or not the mods were done before, or after, (or during, for that matter), Mk V production, I can only speak to the example in the MKL article.

The extra work required to make a one of a kind, (so far), fully ribbed, convex safety, as well as a more complicated long-range aperture formed to clear it, certainly leads me to believe it was the earlier development. The shape of the rear of the receiver, the excessive machining cuts in it to clear the new rear sight, as well as the relative flimsiness of the rear sight, to me, are further evidence that this was, indeed, a Trials model. Can't imagine a scenario where, in an attempt to save money by converting an earlier model to a current one, authorities make the converted models more difficult to manufacture, machine them less efficiently, then equip them with inferior sights to the model already in production. No, this one at least, predates the production models.

It will be very interesting to see what Peter discovers with the three Mk V's in the Warminster Collection.

Regards,

Terry

Hi
Bought from EFD a year or so ago. The wood is pretty good but the metal parts don't match up with the originals. I don't know if they corrected this error yet. I have 3 MKV trials. Managed to buy a complete original rear sight on Ebay for less than 200.00. I won't use the EFD sight even though it's close. I need the slide portion of one rear sight, two front bands and two V marked safety's to complete all 3 MkV's.
Good luck
Thmmrt22

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thmmrt22

Hi
Bought from EFD a year or so ago. The wood is pretty good but the metal parts don't match up with the originals. I don't know if they corrected this error yet. I have 3 MKV trials. Managed to buy a complete original rear sight on Ebay for less than 200.00. I won't use the EFD sight even though it's close. I need the slide portion of one rear sight, two front bands and two V marked safety's to complete all 3 MkV's.
Good luck
Thmmrt22

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Am in the finishing stage of my No1 MkV, ( see it in the restorers corner forum, SMLE No1 MkV Restoration part 2 & 3) decided to build it up and add original bits if i get them.

waiting for the barrel band from E J Blackley & sons, see link below.
once it arrives will let you know what its like.

E J Blackley and Son Barrel Bands and Swivels