L42a1 Trigger Guard Loop Survey

How many L42a1's have had the the little wire loop in front of the mag well removed?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC01749-1.jpg

W/LOOP__: 12
W/O LOOP: 38
Running totals not including the above poll as of 02:41 EDT 10 March 2014- up to and including post #56


Thought it might be interesting to do a poll. If you have more than one, post your results in the thread below. That or have a friend or two who DOESN'T have one enter each additional item.


ETA: If you wish to post photos of yourL42a1 here's a link to a thread dedicated to these rifles:

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=19309

Not too sure how accurate the raw poll will be, so I think its best to also post your info also, if you feel like going public. Otherwise just PM me as whatever data you feel comfortable releasing.

I've only the one right now, its got no loop- had it since they came in during the mid '90s

I have had two since the late 90`s and both had the loop removed.

This has cropped before and it seems as though many don't have the loop. But the L42's here, on the sniper div had them and so did all those that I ever encountered. I say this because the L42 EMER didn't mention that it could be removed - so it stayed.

I never used the trigger guard screw swivel (and I was never a sniper) but the reason it was retained was so that the sling didn't twist.

jmoore, My L42 still has the loop.

Attachment 20404

Brad

Mine is loopless. Rifle is from the Navy Arms import batch.

Six L42's dated 1970, 1971x2, 1972, 1974 and 1975 No loops are present on any of them.

I voted above as well.

Mine is a 1971 Navy Arms import and it does not have the wire loop.

Brian B

Of my five, three are without the loop and two have them.

Have two; both BSA 44's originally. One 1970 conversion with loop & one '71 without.

ATB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

This has cropped before and it seems as though many don't have the loop. But the L42's here, on the sniper div had them and so did all those that I ever encountered. I say this because the L42 EMER didn't mention that it could be removed - so it stayed.

I never used the trigger guard screw swivel (and I was never a sniper) but the reason it was retained was so that the sling didn't twist.

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Your previous comments are what prompted this inquery. It seems to be a quirk specific to L42's as it seems the vast majority all "regular" No.4(T) rifles still have them.

I'm just curious how many stray from EMER proper spec.

From the previous page the totals just from the posts are (correct me if this doesn't add up- not much time to "cipher"):

With : 4
Without: 14

NOTE: Running totals will stay on Pg 1 entry #1 for now.

Two L42s: 71 with loop, 71 without loop

I accept that most don't have them and maybe this was a relaxation in strandards during the conversion programme but I can't find anyone who knows about it.

Let's let this play out a while and see what kind of numbers that we can generate.

Anybody interested in doing an upper handguard survey as well?
I.e. Smooth, "Short" grooved, "Long" Grooved/Converted...

Maybe buttstock lengths, but that was subject to change w/ the operator.

Can't think of anything else to sample that might show up at random.

Greetings,
Mine was converted in June of 1972. The wire loop has been removed.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2cNkiVel-1.jpg
Regards,
Michael

I have two both are Lee Enfiled BSA 45's originally, both 1971 conversion without loops. Converted in Jan 1972.

Just a thought, but is there a right and wrong way to install the trigger guard swivel WRT to the loop? If so, is mine in post 5 correct or incorrect...I don't use that swivel, but again, just wondering.

Brad

Have two, both '71 conversions, both with out loops.

Mine has the loop. I acquired the rifle ten years ago untouched in it's case. I never fired it. It has it's original scope and case. No IWS. A chamber stick from a forum member. I was wondering the purpose of the serial number check to determine date of conversion and disposition. Is it to authenticate? I'll get mine checked. Thanks Gary

Thinking off the wall so to speak on this matter, I wonder if a decision was made, high up in the Ordnance or at the Maintenance Advisory Group (we call them 'the MAG's) a decision was made regarding Cadet Force No4 rifles. Maybe, after looking at this situation where a decision was made to the effect that
'.....if you think we're going to reject hundreds (and maybe thousands if it affected the No4 as well as the L39 and 42) of trigger guards because the loop for the now obsolete action cover is missing or formulating a repair programme to rectify the situation, then you're wrong. And if the sling twists on the swivel, then that's tough!'
A similar situation arose on several other occasions. One that I do remember was the bayonet standard on the Sterling Mk4/L2A3 sub machine gun. In the latter days, if this came loose or broke off (it was brazed inside tha casing.....) then it was simply removed, made good and that's how it stayed. Earlier, if this happened, you brazed it back or if it was lost, you scrapped the whole gun!.

That's just a thought about the work of the MAG's. But if they DID decree this, it never got to me

Have 2 W/O and 1 with.

Took a look at my 1971 L42 and see the loop is gone. Out of curiosity, also checked the '69 Envoy, '70 L39 and '73 Enforcer, only to discover they are all without loops as well. In fact, the only 7.62 Lee-Enfield in the collection that still has the loop is a 1943 B.S.A. No. 4 (T) that someone bastardized with a Sterling conversion, but, obviously, that has no bearing on this discussion.

Bit of a coincidence that this subject comes up now, as yesterday, I took the Enforcer I hadn't fired yet, out to the desert to sight in the Pecar. Quickly discovered the truth in Peter's statement... without that loop the sling twisted itself up like it had a mind of its own! Still a blast to shoot though.

Regards,

Terry

L42A1 Loop = No (1971 K38739)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../L42Loop-1.jpg

1971 L42A1 Enfield Sniper Rifle Serial #E34262
(Originally a 1944 No.4 Mk1(T) mfg by BSA Shirley)
c/w matched L1A1 scope Serial #25889

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...0434Medium.jpg
(Click PIC to Enlarge)

NO LOOP

Regards,
Badger

Edited: (Changed ratio at 10:00 EST) Running at 4 (W/O loop) to 1 (With loop) ratio on both posts and over 3 to 1 on the anonymous survey so far! Still, not a huge sampling yet...

-Running totals on Post #1-

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Running at better than 3 (W/O loop) to 1 (With loop) ratio on both posts and anonymous survey so far! Still, not a huge sampling yet...

-Running totals on Post #1-

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screwed up. Mine does not have the loopI thought you meant the sling loop. I better stay with my Fals. The S/n on my L42A1 is x322996. It had to come from stores at Donnington because it hasn't done a damn thing. Still unused. sheepish ... Gary ps. the "x" is real. Now for pictures

I guarantee it's not "unused"! It sure isn't hurt though!

Back to two again! Doesn't affect survey, but gotta gloat a little...


See post #20-
L42 Photos - Page 2 - Military Surplus Collectors Forums

Some swapping and trading and bunch of stuff sold to get it...Nothing Enfield though.:D

Now off to bed, working seven days this week!

Brian,

How can you tell that Arado’s L42A1 have been “used”, and not kept in storage “unused” at Donnington? Is there a list of L42’s, which have been used and to what regiments issued too? Reason I’m interested is I have a L42, which was “well kept”. From the marking on the original box, it was a D Coy 3 Queens (later 3 PWRR) and spent most of its life at HQ Coy. Probably as an instructor’s bit of kit, for the ATR Sniper Instructors Courses.

It's just reality. At 1080 total produced, my guess would be that they were ALL used. I'm no expert and I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings. We've guessed that half or more of that number have been scrapped as they were completely worn out. I will also say that the most tired L42 I've owned would shoot so much better than I can that it's not even funny once the scope was serviced and the rifle tuned up. That's irregardless of the wear in the bore, etc. I've had sixty or so since they were first imported in 1993-94, imported more than 50 myself and checked every one thoroughly with correct gauges. I still have a couple of exceptionally nice ones too but they've certainly been used. Just maybe not so much since the last time they were refinished in MoD service. I really don't know of any unused examples anywhere, not even at the Royal Armouries who got the Enfield Pattern Room collection from Nottingham. At least I sure didn't see any new ones there, (Nottingham), during my visit in 1999. Maybe Peter and Roger can elaborate a bit. They've seen more than I over the years. Anything is possible but......

My 6 hour old L-42 does not have the loop. It is a BDL import,:dancingbanana::dancingbanana: with serialed chest and mostly complete CES. Need the Scope, Regiment, and the scope can strap. And the little vial with the brush. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

It's just reality. At 1080 total produced, my guess would be that they were ALL used. I'm no expert and I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings. We've guessed that half or more of that number have been scrapped as they were completely worn out. I will also say that the most tired L42 I've owned would shoot so much better than I can that it's not even funny once the scope was serviced and the rifle tuned up. That's irregardless of the wear in the bore, etc. I've had sixty or so since they were first imported in 1993-94, imported more than 50 myself and checked every one thoroughly with correct gauges. I still have a couple of exceptionally nice ones too but they've certainly been used. Just maybe not so much since the last time they were refinished in MoD service. I really don't know of any unused examples anywhere, not even at the Royal Armouries who got the Enfield Pattern Room collection from Nottingham. At least I sure didn't see any new ones there, (Nottingham), during my visit in 1999. Maybe Peter and Roger can elaborate a bit. They've seen more than I over the years. Anything is possible but......

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Wow, it sounds like you did do well at Louisville. The scope will be perfect too thanks to Peter. He serviced all of them over the several years I imported those rifles. Send me a PM with the serial of the scope and I'll find the worksheet in my file for you. I hope you enjoy it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by limpetmine

My 6 hour old L-42 does not have the loop. It is a BDL import,:dancingbanana::dancingbanana: with serialed chest and mostly complete CES. Need the Scope, Regiment, and the scope can strap. And the little vial with the brush. ;)

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:dancingbanana::dancingbanana: Indeed!

The follow is purely opinion and observation on a quite limited scale!:

They really do shoot better than the theorists could ever fathom, IF you bear down and really really concentrate on each shot. Do your part and they'll do theirs, but they don't forgive sloppy technique like some of the Super Tactical Marvels that everyone else gets all thrilled about. Aside from the front pad coming adrift occasionally, they're rather more rugged than anything else in the precision rifle world, I think. Plus, the iron sights will do quite well in a pinch. The one I just got was doing 1-1 1/2 MOA at 100 and 200 yds w/ the irons before the front pad got sorted. Haven't tried it w/ the scope yet!


Hey, Limpetmine, get on your belly or behind some rubble and shoot some targets at ludicrous distances for us, please. (But don't get your sling all twisted up!):cheers:

L42A1D71, AU1680, all matching including scope and box; loop has been removed.

limpetmine, AHHH, the honeymoon period is upon you! :super:

Brad

I'll let you all into a little secret. When equipment, such as the L42's were withdrawn very slowly back to Ordnance, they have to go back as a CES with all the kit because they're going straight back into store. Whether they are going into long term preservation or Mobilisation or War Reserve stocks. This means that they go through the Armourers shop who inspect it and decide whether it needs to be refurbished by them (the unit Armourers) or by the Field or Cammand workshop where they've got better facilities and more time. From this, you'll see that for it's journey to Ordnance, it is up to A1 standard. Some were, admittedly, a bit ropey and moth-eaten aound the ears while others were absolutely superb. But don't forget, the fore-ends, handguards and cheek rests were already in very short supply. Hence the number of cheek rests with slip patches.

They sat on the shelves for many years before being released and even then were picked over before the public got their hands on them. Ordnance took some parts out too....., such as the IWS brackets, leather slings and handbooks. Additionally, instructions were issued that the chamber stick and nylon L8 type slings were to be retained for the replacement L96's.

As a matter of interest DanL, the snipers were/are trained at Brecon/Warminster where the instructors are based and not at the normal Army Training Regiments that deal with recruit training. They don't have sniper training facilities, nor do the units. The snipers return to their units after the course, when they're fully trained.

All three of mine '70, '71, and '74 do not have the loop

3 of them................ All complete to CES? now you're just showing off Lance!

I hope that by now nobody is short of the IWS bracket because exact repops have been produced. Just get one today, while they're available and if the other half moans, just remind her of the age old advice that everything was cheap YESTERDAY

Thank you, Lance! (He gets a written thanks for resurrecting this thread, in case the rest of y'all feel slighted.)

Updated totals on pg 1, but to save having to jump back, it's (up to and including post #45 on pg following):

W/ loop-- 10
W/o loop- 35
Anybody else? Pictures are always good, too but there's another (older) thread dedicated to that aspect of L42a1ness. Link below:

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=19309


:wave:

Let's keep it going for a bit longer then with a small request. Has anyone else used one of the repro IWS brackets with the night sight?

Obviously we have and I have to say that while it wasn't spot on zero, it was close to and well within the zeroing ability of the night sight we used.

No loop.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

..MJ...

I've got 3 and they've all got loops. M 37026, A-0417 and another that I can't remember..........

The new snipers had a couple from work out on the ranges last week. They commented on how 'gentle' they are. That must be 'gentle' as in 'not as fierce as the L115 .338's' and not 'gentle' as in being nailed by one!

Just as a matter of historical interest, the last 29 L96's were withdrawn last week. And before anyone asks, no, they are not going to be released. If anyone wants one, they should have got one when they were cheap!

I have a 1971 L42, the loop is intact.
G

I have got two both 1971 & no loops,

If it is of any help, I was looking though the:
Infantry Training Volume 1
Skill at Arms
Pamphlet No4 SNIPING
Dated 1976

Chapter 1 Page 55, showing how the sling is fitted to the L42A1, the rifle illustrated has no loop

A link to another L42a1 with photos that has no loop. (RobD, feel free to add what you wish, but I've added yours to the survey as of this post.)

L42A1 with unusual fore end?

Adding a link to a Peter Laidler thread, which adds some more information:

LOOPLESS L42 TRIGGER GUARDS ........again!

Thanks for that JM. As I said earlier. I am only spouting the official party line but to be honest, the only purpose the loop really served was to prevent the sling twisting when you used it on the No8 and No4/L42.

I looked through the L42 EMER at work this morning and the data summary and technical description doesn't mention a non-loop as a change of spec.

I think all bases are pretty well covered now. If you've got it, all well and good. If not, STILL all well and good!

I wonder if there are No8's out there without the trigger guard loop.............. Helmets on............ awaiting incoming!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I wonder if there are No8's out there without the trigger guard loop.............. Helmets on............ awaiting incoming!

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I have 3 in stock at the moment, all HAVE loops & swing swivels the same as the No4T that will not rotate past the loop.

Simon P: "I have 3 in stock at the moment, all HAVE loops & swing swivels the same as the No4T that will not rotate past the loop."

No.8 rifles, yes? It might be worth starting another thread if you find some without.

You shouldn't ever find a No8 without a loop. A loop fitment was written in stone for that rifle

BTW, this thread bounced back to the top due to new poll entries, I believe. Thanks to those who recently added to the poll. Feel free to supply more info if you want!

ETA (Very much later!): Running totals as of 10 March 2014 (Post #56)

With loop: 12
Without loop: 38

Now I've joined the "42 Club" I'd like to add my vote :-

No Loop.

Attachment 50822

Mine is without said loop

Mine doesn't have it either.

Mine does have the loop.

My 71 dated L42 has the loop.

Vintage Hunter,
Well that deer wont be jumping through any loops again will he???:lol:

Got another L42 on the way (thanks to Promo), so I'll let you know when it arrives.

My 1971 dated rifle does not have the loop.

Another '71 dated, Navy Arms import L42A1 is here for a paint job and it's missing the loop.

Three No.8Mk.1's in the vault and ALL retain the loops.