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Just currious, but what exactly does CRB mean that is stamped into the receiver ring of some Ross M10's.
I've read it could mean one of three things:
1) Canadian Railway Battalion
2) Canadian Ranger Battalion
3) Canadian Reserve Battalion
Can anyone shed some light on this?
A great qutesion with lots of opinions.... :thup:
Here's a couple of past threads on MILSURPS.COM where a number of opinions have been offered.
M10 Ross Question
Ross Rifle Company M10 Military Rifle - $950 (Cdn)
Hope this helps... :)
Regards,
Badger
Thanks Badger!!
I also would like to know. I just acquired a Ross Mk III with CRB on the receiver as well. (see second pic down low-CRB)Quote:
Originally Posted by Transitsc
There seems to have been a production run done for the Canadian government around WWII era, I've had a couple and seen more. Barrels shortened, stock cut down etc.
I've heard Alberta Lands and Forests.
Canadian Rangers.
Canadian Reserve Battalion.
4 digit s/n in the 2XXX range.
Barrel is shiny with nice rifling, but there seems to be a bulge part way down bore, cleaning rod brush catches a bit.
Beautiful stock and wood grain, bluing on trigger guard and magazine almost like new. Cosmetically very nice.
No front or rear sights or barrel band, needed on other projects.
Any estimates on value?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...BCUTDOWN-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...Rifle010-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ifle0061-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ifle0021-1.jpg
I just came across some interesting information. The Canadian Rangers were originally issued Ross rifles, and later Lee Enfields.Quote:
Originally Posted by Transitsc
See: CRB Canadian Rangers
Canadian Government Order-in-Council Number 1644
May 23, 1947
Gentlemen, I think it might be profitable were we to widen the scope of our search.
We have long wondered (including myself for 25 years) as to the origin of the PLY Rosses and we have found precisely NOTHING. All that we know is NEGATIVE: there is/ was/never has been any Canadian formation using these letters. THEN an intelligent chap (not myself, let it be noted) widened the search and came up with the Royal Marines out of PLYmouth. The mystery of all those PLY rifles appears to be on its way to being solved... at last.
THAT got some of our minds partly-awake (for a change, in my case) as we were slapped in the proverbial face with a wet lutefisk by the realisation of four facts and their import:
1. in Canadian service, the normal place to stamp Ross formation marks was on the wood;
2. British practice required formation stampings on the metal;
3. the PLY rifles are stamped on the metal;
4. the CRB rifles are stamped on the metal, as are other formation marks.
Should we not be broadening our search to include the BRITISH formations, built up hastily in the early stages of the Great War especially, to which the turned-in Canadian Rosses were given as emergency-issue pieces in the interim until Lee-Enfields became available?
Also, should we not be considering PRIVATE groups which may have required numbers of cheap surplus rifles for guard duty during LATER troubles? I am minded of a reported CPR Ross; will try to find out more.
And we should always be aware that better than HALF of the world supply of Rosses, especially Mark IIIs, ended up in Russia. There is room there for a LOT of unknown formation markings AND for a lot of fill-in numbers on the series now are beginning to identify.
But we should widen our search. The rifles bring their histories with them, but they can only speak to us so loudly. WE have to listen and sort it all out.
If you think I'm on the wrong track here, blast away.
With respect to CRB. Has anyone seen an official reference to a "Canadian Ranger Battalion", as opposed to "Canadian Rangers"?
I believe that there was indeed a "Canadian Ranger Battalion" formed in the early part of the Great War, taking former Imperial troops, cowboys and so forth, much the same mixture as the PPCLI started off with.
I have no idea what became of them. Nicholson will know.
Was that the Legion of Frontiersmen you were thinking of Smellie?
No, I am aware of them but never met anyone from them. There were all kinds of outfits at the start of that War. Ever hear of the Yukon Volunteers? I knew a man who was with them, quit and joined the Yukon Machine Gun Company. He told me that as far as he was aware the YV were still in the square in Dawson, drilling with broomsticks!
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that there ALSO were the "Canadian Rangers" 'way back then. Problem is that so much has been forgotten. Our collective memory tends to be somewhat disgraceful, especially when we don't need our heroes any longer.
Heinlein put it rather succinctly in his novel "Glory Road" (about a guy who comes back from 'Nam and gets a job killing dragons: neat story) when he said "Unemployed hero = bum."
Same thing today, of course. There was a rant on one of these forums a while back about the 'thugs' who have 'invaded' Afghanistan. I shoot with some of those 'thugs' and regard them as friends, respect what they are trying to do. Others do not. These particular 'thugs' are called the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry and they are attempting to make some kind of Peace and Stability out of Chaos. A worthy objective? I would think, but my name isn't bin Laden.
It's not surprising that entire units have disappeared from the normal ken of things; it is down to use to keep at least their names alive. But I am pretty sure that Nicholson also mentioned Canadian Rangers. They could well have been mixed in with some other formation. It's all very confusing because the peacetime Militia was organised on a Regimental basis, but went to war in Battalions, then reverted to Regiments when the Peace came in 1919.
But I do believe that there were Rangers early in the Great War.
Further to this, I just picked up a WWI M10 with the CRB stamp on the receiver. I have owned a couple before which were somewhat sporterized, so I assumed they might be WWII issue as well, or whatever. However, this one wears full wood, 1916 dated, with a nice CEF stamp on the buttstock. The receiver is stamped with a host of British proofs and the CRB 2425. The bolt has a mismatch number, which was obviously applied in Britain or somewhere else as we all know Ross bolts weren't numbered. I considered whether this might be a "mated" rifle, wiht a stock put on a different action, but if so it was a LONG time ago--this rifle action and stock have been together for a very long time. Given the Canadian habit of the time to mark on the wood and the British to mark on the metal, I would agree that these might have been British issue in some way. However, this one clearly started out as a CEF issued Ross, so was not a commercial purchase or one made up after the gov't seized the Ross factory. Still a mystery, though. The rifle has a nice bore, and a nice "used and been there" feel to it. I just love old Rosses.
Ed
Attachment 29638Attachment 29639Attachment 29640Attachment 29641
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It is interesting that the PLY stamped Ross rifles has evolved into a three year project that should bear fruit this year. It started with a thread here on Milsurps about the meaning of the PLY markings. SMELLIE and I were sucking down coffee at his house, (a once a week event) when he mentioned that he had a PLY Ross. It was over that coffee that the significance of the markings ON THE METAL hit us, and the subsequent results seems to have corresponded to our original suppositions. Canadian rifles of the time period were stamped on the butt stock wood.
Since there were PLY rifles with numbers up into the 6000 range, the question was "What British Unit, after 1916, would be large enough to need 6000 rifles?" This quickly narrowed the possibilities down to a handfull, one of which was the Royal Marines.
Letters, phone calls and e-mails to the Royal Marines were made, and the Royal Marines Museum tends to agree with us. They also supplied a lot of other information, such as the Weedon List of 1930, photographs and photocopies of various documents. Much of the information in these documents have been confirmed by a well known and respected Australian researcher who is interested in the Naval aspect of WWI.
At the start of WWI, the Royal Marines had to give their Short Magazine Lee Enfield rifles to the Army, which was short of rifles. In return they were armed for a time with Japanese Arasaka rifles, but were eventually standardized with the Ross Mark III that the Canadians had exchanged for SMLE rifles. This is why the CEF markings appear on the PLY and other rifles. There were many pictures of Royal Marines armed with Ross Rifles, including some taken in 1919 when the German Fleet scuttled at Scapa Flow.
It is not only Ross rifles that ended up in Naval Service. The Mauser rifles from HMS Canada, Winchester 44-40 rifles, Remington 44-40 pump gun rifles, and Remington Rolling Block rifles were also purchased in the USA and sent to England, where they did good service on some of the smaller vessels and Costal and Harbour craft. One of the Agents who bought and shipped some of these rifles was J.P. Morgan.
With the information available now, it is believed that the CRB rifles were used by the Royal Marines Depot in Crombie, England, the PLY rifles were used by the Royal Marines Depot in Plymouth, England and the PHAB rifles were used by the Priddies Hard Arsenal, (a munitioning dock and depot for warships,) in England. These are the three most commonly found markings on the British Naval rifles.
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Funny, I just posted pictures over on Rossrifle.com of some PLY marked stuff, including pictures of Marines with issue Rosses. I didn't realize the two markings were connected. Thanks very much! Another little historical mystery solved...........
Ed
Things continue working out the way they seem to be, we should have some STUNNING photos and a writeup or all you Ross fans, come April.
Keep watching.
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Any further news on the writeup on Marine issued Rosses? Awaiting with interest!Quote:
Originally Posted by smellie
Ed
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We have here right now a very interesting 1905 Ross Rifle. We have been working on this little "project" for over two years now, and our projected (and hoped for date) was April 2012. Unfortunately shipping delays precluded this.
However, the rifle is now here in Manitoba, and SMELLIE and I did a bit of test firing with some accuracy loads. It performs as we expect a Ross to shoot.
Right now, we are trying to set something up, probably for mid-November, so we have a few months to work on it. A few Members of this Forum, (including BADGER naturally) have been kept aware of our progress, and I thank them for their help and encouragement.
Just to tempt you, here are a couple of pictures. SMELLIE on the left with 1910 HMS Canada Ross --BUFFDOG on the right with 1905 Ross.
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https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...fdog2png-1.jpg
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https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5Rosspng-1.jpg
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There is another actual alternative, though I don't believe it is applicable in this case due to the sheer volume.
My copy of "Instructions for Canadian Ordnance Services 1924" with all updates thru April '41 shows "C" Company (C.) "Le Regiment de Beuce" (R.B.) of Military District No.5
So according to Paragraph 371-373 and Appendex IV the proper way of marking arms on charge of Company "C" would be:
C.R.B.
372 "The marking of barrels....is strictly forbidden."...
373 ..."Care should be taken that the marks on the small arms are not too deeply stamped."
In my experience with a few Pre WWI and Pre & Post WWII Canadian small arms, Government Property marks (C^) are often found stamped on the receiver and knox form, unit markings are another story.
Unit and formation markings are found on the butt stock of Ross rifles, not the receiver.
I don't believe these particular Ross rifles are Canadian marked.
So far, I have not encountered a PLY rifle....... nor a CRB rifle...... lacking British Post-WW2 commercial proof marks. It is entirely possible that some are out there, but I have not been bitten by one.
Yet.
There is always tomorrow.
For the Ross Rifle in Canadian Service, standard practice was to mark the rifle's history on the WOOD, as in normal Australian practice.
British practice was to mark the METAL..... and the PLY rifles are uniformly-marked on the thinnest part of the Receiver Ring. This is NOT where someone who was familiar with the construction of the rifle would have marked it. The numbers for the PLY Rosses run to over 6000. I think that if any Canadian Armourer had marked 6000 Rosses (which already were hard enough to rebarrel) on the thinnest part of the Receiver Ring, he still would be doing push-ups at Valcartier!
Th PHAB marking is in accordance with Canadian Overseas Battalion markings: on the wood, a small circular stamping, under the Wrist of the Stock. It consists of the letters PHAB in a circle with the number 1 or 2. It is definitely NOT a Canadian formation marking. I have a pair of PHAB rifles, one a "1", the other a "2"; both are "stripped" rifles, although slightly different.
CRB rifles, again, are marked on the METAL: normal British practice, definitely NOT normal Canadian practice at that time.
Hope this helps.
I just obtained, traded, a M-10 Ross marked CRB cut down to 21" barrel and mis matched bolt. Good operating condition and I will try out with some hand loaded cast bullets. (light load)
I understand these were conversions done in England ( E mark for chamber enlargement), but only marks I could find indicating British ownership were the BM under bomb.
Only wood mark I can read is a 58 at top rear of right side BUT stock cut down to have recoil pad applied so could have been sanded heavily as well.
Detailed photos can be viewed here: Picasa Web Albums - Phil Cressman - Ross M 1910
What you describe as the "BM under bomb" is a Birmingham commercial proof mark under a Crown. Also, the "Nitro Proof" stamp is an indication of British Proof of rifles sold for export.
The Markings shown are about "standard" for these surplussed Ross sporters.
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