Import Marked WWII Garand

I have a bit of a dilemma and I need some advice and opinions. I have come across an interesting Garand and I am in a quandary as to what to do. I bought what was supposed to be a substantially correct and unmolested March of 45 Garand with all original parts and some good honest wear – along with a pretty nice SA/NFR stock. Came out of a WWI vets estate, family has no interest, blah, blah, blah. Buy the rifle, not the story, 3-day inspection period allows me the flexibility to be sure I am getting what I expect. Paid what you would expect to pay for a nice WWII era rifle. Rifle arrived and it was filthy and my biggest concern was the bore. This rifle had been shot, and carbon fouling was everywhere. TE=3, and a patch through the barrel revealed a pretty nice looking bore…it also uncovered a teeny tiny ARL ORD import mark on the barrel by the muzzle. One of those very early, very small, nicely done markings…uh-oh! Seller avows no knowledge, and based on conversations prior to making the deal I tend to believe him. He agrees that value of rifle is impacted by presence of markings, now we need to decide by how much. To me, this is a rifle that was imported in its original WWII configuration and would make a nice addition to a collection. I just don’t want to have to make apologies in the form of dollar bills somewhere down the road due to the presence of the import markings.

How much, in the form of yankee dollars, do the markings affect the value? $100, $200? $300? $500, more?

Thoughts, suggestions, comments??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sgt Rock

I have a bit of a dilemma and I need some advice and opinions. I have come across an interesting Garand and I am in a quandary as to what to do. I bought what was supposed to be a substantially correct and unmolested March of 45 Garand with all original parts and some good honest wear – along with a pretty nice SA/NFR stock. Came out of a WWI vets estate, family has no interest, blah, blah, blah. Buy the rifle, not the story, 3-day inspection period allows me the flexibility to be sure I am getting what I expect. Paid what you would expect to pay for a nice WWII era rifle. Rifle arrived and it was filthy and my biggest concern was the bore. This rifle had been shot, and carbon fouling was everywhere. TE=3, and a patch through the barrel revealed a pretty nice looking bore…it also uncovered a teeny tiny ARL ORD import mark on the barrel by the muzzle. One of those very early, very small, nicely done markings…uh-oh! Seller avows no knowledge, and based on conversations prior to making the deal I tend to believe him. He agrees that value of rifle is impacted by presence of markings, now we need to decide by how much. To me, this is a rifle that was imported in its original WWII configuration and would make a nice addition to a collection. I just don’t want to have to make apologies in the form of dollar bills somewhere down the road due to the presence of the import markings.

How much, in the form of yankee dollars, do the markings affect the value? $100, $200? $300? $500, more?

Thoughts, suggestions, comments??

---

Sgt Rock -Depends on what you actually paid for the rifle...if it was $500.00 I wouldn't sweat it. $1000.00 ??...well without pictures..I'd suggest about $300.00 deduction ..depending on other factors..Springfield or Winchester? Overall general condition ete.

I had this dilemma a few years ago. I was interested in an all correct gap letter. It was import marked on the barrel--nothing obtrusive but it was import marked. I discussed this with leemazoid and he said 'What the heck. It is still an all correct gap letter. So it has an import mark on it." Given that advice, I bought the rifle and I haven't regretted it since. I think I paid $985 for it about 2 or 3 years ago. I wouldn't think value would be affected more than $100 or $200 at the most in my case. HTH Al

It is so rare to find one with most all of it's original parts, particularly in the case of the WWII Garand. Personally, if all of the parts appear to be original and closely matching in wear patterns and condition, maybe $250-$300. Condition and originality would trump the import mark IMHO.

Sgt Rock - I replied to your PM... "dbarn" and I think alike!!

Now!!...Post some pictures!!!

My opinion is $200 less for the import mark if it is unobtrusive.

I have a rifle that's just like yours except it a 3371xxx with correct SA/GAW stock and all original-correct parts. The lock bar staked on the rear sight has never been broken. Obviously some of the rifles imported in the 80's from Korea and elsewhere were unalterd originals in grungy but nice condition when cleaned up. My attitude is that the import mark is just another day in the history of the rifle unless horribly done and obtrusive. I know some think that it detracts from value but I don't really understand why as unaltered, original rifles are so difficult to find at all. I'd much rather have this rifle with it's import mark than one that has been restored by a collector/enthusiast. Just my 2 cents so take it for what it's worth.

I wouldn't be lead down the primrose path thinking that an import rifle would be correct as a lot of imports were put together from rifles that were to beat up to sell. Blue Sky is one of them. I read that the stamp was so heavy on a carbine barrel that when it was fired it blew the barrel. I believe it was in the CMP forum where I read it.

A politician would rather climb a tree to tell a lie, than stand on the ground and tell the truth

Well, I understand your point but I've been collecting for 30 years and in the trade for the last 20. I know a rifle that hasn't been screwed with be it an M1Rifle or No.4T Lee Enfield sniper. Call it a gut feeling if you will but I've been using it forever and have never been burnt seriously. The rifle I have just smells right if you know what I mean. The finish on all of the parts have the same wear patterns and patina and I really do believe that this particular rifle has been together since day one. I also know the guy I purchased it from. It was before all the massive increases in value and he isn't in the trade nor would he have any reason to put one over on anyone let alone me. He actually wanted it back a few years ago but I decided to keep it. I have a few other M1 rifles I've restored, (back when it was affordable), that are now correct but aren't as honest for obvious reasons and I think I'd part with them before I'd part with this one. I have 20 M1 service rifles and four legit snipers in my Garand collection so I know just a little bit about them. ATB.

I'm with Brian, I have only two M1s at this time. One old banger and a early SA, 328219 with English proofs under the op rod handle. It's all correct down to the round firing pin. No matter what some say, the members of this forum would love to be able to absorb it into their masses and that would happen unquestionably. I don't think there would be quibbling by most about import marks. By the sounds of it you want this rifle for you, not resale. Hang on for a few years and it will increase in value in spite of it's self.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brian Dick

I have a rifle that's just like yours except it a 3371xxx with correct SA/GAW stock and all original-correct parts. The lock bar staked on the rear sight has never been broken. Obviously some of the rifles imported in the 80's from Korea and elsewhere were unalterd originals in grungy but nice condition when cleaned up. My attitude is that the import mark is just another day in the history of the rifle unless horribly done and obtrusive. I know some think that it detracts from value but I don't really understand why as unaltered, original rifles are so difficult to find at all. I'd much rather have this rifle with it's import mark than one that has been restored by a collector/enthusiast. Just my 2 cents so take it for what it's worth.

---

I agree 100%. If someone can tell me what's going on with this business concerning import marks I wish you'd fill me in. It's something I can't begin to figure out! Take the "Greek Returns" over at CMP. People are going ga-ga over them. I read a few buyers are complaining that CMP won't put "Greek Return" on their paperwork when they get one! How much history could there possibly be with one of these? I mean with post war, post Korea serial numbers too. On the other hand, I also like Mauser rifles. There are lots of them around with Russian capture marks on them. I got a decent one recently, dated 1941. Now, this rifle could have been picked up at Stalingrad, Kursk, Leningrad or Berlin. Yet the seller told me everyone who looked at it said they didn't want a "Russian Return". Gimme a break here. I asked a guy once why he wanted a "Greek Return", and he said "I don't know, I just want one". Last year I asked a guy why he didn't want a Mauser with Russian capture marks, and was told "I don't know, I just don't". What I see is basically "herd thinking", or something similar.

I got a real nice HRA M-1 that a guy passed on-because the stock had two holes where a grenade sight was attached, who didn't want it because he didn't want to pay for an extra stock that didn't have the holes. What the heck, the rifle had a grenade launcher sight-it was part of that rifles history.

Charlie

Charlie, You've hit the proverbial nail square on the head. The fact is this. Import marks have been a part of U.S. firearms law since 1968. When I first went hunting a nice M1 Rifle in the late 1970's as a teenager, There weren't many to be had anywhere and when I finally did get one, it was a shot out Winchester for $550. Thanks to the import ban on military surplus being lifted in the 1980's, many good quality surplus rifles of foreign and U.S origins were allowed back into the country. It dropped prices and gave us lots of weapons to buy, sell and trade up to this day. In the case of British and Commonwealth weapons, the ones retained for war reserve service were surplused meaning some of the finest firearms we'd ever seen on the market. The guys that poo poo rifles with import marks when it comes to those are silly because most of the ones surplused prior to 1968 were done for a reason. That reason meaning they were out of specification and didn't pass military specification testing for some reason or another. There were lots of nice M1's and carbines that came in during the 1980's too along with the run of the mill rebuilds. The Russian capture Mausers are just another piece of history in their own right for any 98 Mauser collector. Then there are the Russian and Finn Mosins, Swede Mausers and on and on. I think as the supplies dry up, (and they are), the import mark phobia will become less and less important. In the meantime if you get a deal on an excellent rifle because it's got that horrible "import mark", snatch that thing up, shoot and enjoy it. They ain't making them anymore! ATB.

Sounds like a very nice addition to a collection. I would prefer the import mark to a flat spot on a reparked barrel .
Pictures would be great.

I have to side with the "import marks are legitimate" crowd. In Canada, rifles don't have to be import marked, yet. That will probably change with the next change in government.
The milsurps we get up here are mostly marked now, because they are imported from Century in the US. There is an outfit called Marstar and a few others that brings in milsurps from their original countries. These arms aren't marked.
I can understand the reasoning behind desiring the unblemished piece but it just isn't reasonable in this day and age. What it is, is an intrusion of foreign governments, through the UN, imposing laws and regulations on us that we didn't vote for or give the government the mandate to promote. The rejection of the import marks only plays into the hands of the antis. It was just their way of slapping us in the face.

The pieces are still desirable and just reflect current historical anti firearm sentiments. They also negate any ideas an individual might have about the arms being used by US forces. I understand that many lend lease rifles were used by US forces and loaned after WWII but the import mark leaves the glaring question.

Lee Enfields have similar problems. Canadians want Longbranch rifles, Brits want Maltbys and Americans want Savages. Especially the rifles without the lend lease stamps. It's only natural and a sign of national pride. If the milsurp fad continues for any length of time, import marks will be, just a proof mark of foreign use. Nothing more nothing less.

The guys looking for production Savage No.4Mk.1 or 1* rifles without the U.S Property stamp will be looking for a long time. ALL production Savage No.4 rifles have it because they were ALL destined for service in England and the Commonwealth. A fellow collector has serial number 0C1 which has been converted to a sniper in England and the mark is present on that rifle.

Not to get off track too far here but many M1 rifles and other military rifles that have returned from England have commercial proofs applied because any firearm sold out of service had to go through the proof house prior to civilian resale. Rifles imported prior to 1968 also have country of origin stamps required by U.S. commercial law prior to 1968. No one ever seems to notice or complain about those either but they certainly aren't military markings.