Every once in a while at a local gun show or military show I hear a couple of guys talk about this government complex out in Iowa or Kansas made up of dozens of bunkers that are full of old military surplus dateing back to WWI. Urban legend??
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Every once in a while at a local gun show or military show I hear a couple of guys talk about this government complex out in Iowa or Kansas made up of dozens of bunkers that are full of old military surplus dateing back to WWI. Urban legend??
You can get those stories as far and as local as here on Canada. We were told the exact same stories here on the west coast. I know where the bunkers are but the are only filled with water. The same story seems to surface with every new generation.
Hey that is funny. If you find your bunkers and i find ours full of like new K98k and P08, than we can make a deal. How about 2 SMLE`s for one P08?:madsmile:
The same stories all over the world.
Regards
Gunner
I really did just converse with a colleage, he is in the army reserve, and a higher type officer, who is interested in getting a carbine and garand, and he informs me that when preparing to go to Iraq the first time, he went to fort , xyz, and went into the storage area, into the bunkers, and there was vast amounts of everything in the world there in mint condition, just waitng to be taken out of the mothballs, and used. Some really nice old stuff and new stuff of all descriptions. He said that the size of the storage buildings and bunkers was enormous. Just remember, how many rifles, and other things are sold by the cmp and other surplus outletof the US govt.
Yes, the stories I got were from serving members or reservists who had either seen it personally or knew someone who firsthand saw it... I would have to see it myself. With you and Gunner of course. Then we could spit it all up.
I've heard rumors there's a huge secret bunker in Modesto, CA stocked full of acres upon acres of only the rarest and most valuable USGI guns and parts! :rolleyes:
Ups, i should come and help you to save this items. The flight tickets are cheap!;)
Regards
Gunner
Mmmmm??? Hold the tickets lads. As a long-term steam engine fan, I can remember that in the 70s, when steam buffs were sad about the disappearance of real locomotives, there were stories about a secret government hoard of pristine steam engines hidden away in a tunnel so that an emergency service could be provided if the country was starved of oil.
One of those "wouldn't it be nice if..." ideas that seem to turn into a legend.
And, don't forget, if a couple of million rarities really did appear - well, they wouldn't be rarities any more!
Patrick
Patrick,
I'm a huge steam locomotive fan too. :thup:
You are very correct about supply and demand.
We all talk about the guns that were sporterized, and all the rare guns destroyed, etc...
If these guns and equipment were as plentiful today as they were in the 60's, they wouldn't be valuable collector items today.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1280x768-1.jpg
Thats an huge monster! The one I´ve seen are some numbers smaller than this. Over here you can take a ride on such an Steam Locomotive from Munich to the Lake Constance and back. One of the nicest way to waste time.
Regards
Gunner
Several years ago there was a querie about old wartime buried stockpiles. There were those that answered that the US Army and Air Force left crated planes and all sorts, buried everywhere across the Country. Alas, when investigated, they were all false.
The only thing that I have ever found is an old rusty Ithica M1911 in the crashed remains of an old glider and a hulk of a .303"Browning. But a still new in wrap crated Jeep of Boston would be nice..................
During the early stages of the"Cold War" the CIA(aka "Christians in Action" in some places) buried caches of WWII small arms,ammunition ,explosives and even rations, boots and clothing in various places in locales close to Eastern and Russian Occupied Europe.
AUSTRIA being a prime example.Every so often someone would stumble over/into one and find all kinds of neat stuff a lot of which had been poorly packed and as a result rusted/corroded to perdition.The idea HAD been to leave these caches so that IF it became necessary pro Western(read PRO US) partizans would at least have something to start resisting with until more advanced weaponry etc could be supplied along with cadres to train in the use of the materiel.Last one I heard about was probably 8 to 9 years ago.
The Belgians,having twice been occupied by the Germans(whom they detest) ALSO maintain caches of small arms and explosives in rural areas and only a select few are told of the locations.The village school in the little village where I owned a house in Belgium had an attic FULL of carefully cosmolined MkII Stens and MP40's as well as an even TEN nice MG 42's and a dozen cases of WWII British No36 Grenades and a plentiful stock of 9mm and 7.92mm BALL ammo.2 cases of TNT blocks were also included as were things like tape fuse,caps and time pencils etc.All good kit to have IF you are setting out to make life mizherable for unwanted 'visitors'.
I was very much accepted by my neighbours(I speak French and was ALWAYS careful to do my numbers in WALLOON (as opposed to Parisian French) which they liked.I have never been shy of hard work and would pitch in to help with haying and pulling root crops(and drinking a little of the homemade fruit liqueurs etc) so I was put in the know re the weapons stash.
I know that LIEBERAL,granola munching,cappuccino swilling,tree hugging green wienies(at least the part of said 'wienie' that isn't "FUDGE" coated that is) will FREAK out just thinking about guns and exposives in a school attic but then they would be the very first to surrender too;wouldn't they?My neighbours were a little more realistic.
Here in BC we get stories about WWII aircraft having been left IN CRATES on some of the WWII emergency airstrips that were built to ferry aircraft and equipment to Alaska and Ferry others on to Siberia.One in particular on the Liard Plateau that nobody seems to be able to locate is a good case in point.One military vehicle collector BSed a magazine columnist that HE had a Jeep rescued from one of these fanciful airstrips.Only problem was that the WINTER roof and gas heater were ALL Korean war vintage as was the FORD built M38 Jeep itself.
One MUST be able to sort the "wheat from the chaff" when reading about such tales.JR
John R.;
that is right . The CIA had a nice programm with building up a "Second Front of Partisans"" against the Neighbours from the eastern sector( i mean the folks with the tools in the flag). They even had their Caches here too. The " Wehrsportgruppe Hoffmann" was such an group of " Partisan". Interesting part of history.
Regards
Gunner
Then, I guess that all those stories about the Russians having tons of K-98s, cleaned, re-blued, and cosmolined, as well as Thompson .45 full autos, in caves, must be urban myth also...
Or maybe this is where some of those urban myths started...
Well I have driven a steam locomótive (only 5":D), but a UP 4-8-8-4 Big Boy is somewhat above my power class! Still, íf your back yard is big enough, and you have a private coal mine...I can only afford HO.
Patrick
So PC, maybe you would have some information on the arms that were stashed in England during the war for partisans to use in case of invasion? The UK government proudly admits to this case scenario. Were the weapons left in place or were they all rounded up by the wienies?
Seemed like a pretty good idea to me.
There is still a cold war era bunker, just out of Calgary, I believe that was surplussed to private individuals about 15 years ago. It was built to ensure survival of select government officials in case of nuclear confrontations. The government is now trying to force the sale of said accomodations back to the government.
There was a documentary about the place on CBC one evening. They removed several of the chrome vanadium doors to pay off the loan. They also showed pics of out dated food caches and a few vehicles that were up on blocks in long term storage mode. There were also generators, water treatment and storage facilities. The sleeping quarters were quite utilitarion but there were theatres, offices, gyms and most of the paraphenalia needed to operate a government. No mention was made of weapons.
There was a similar redoubt redoubt built in the US that was disguised as a resort. It was televised and shown to be redundant, but still fully stocked, again, no weapons were shown.
Those bunkers were located all over Canada. I stayed in the one in Shilo Man in the 70s and I don't believe for a minute weapons were on site. It was for total lockdown not fighting from. Just a giant multi level bank vault. The one in Nanaimo BC was bulldozed over with dirt and can be viewed from the bi pass highway by all who know it's whereabouts. There was also one in Rockcliff off old NDHQ in Ottawa. I have no idea what happened to it. All they had in them was business equipment so to speak.
I **did** see acres and acres of milsurp when I was in the service - rotting away on Kiska Island in the aleutians. I was on the CGC Dexter, fisheries patrol. We stopped at Kiska for a 4th of July holiday on the beach. One of the Enginemen picked up a rusted-up 50 cal. MG. I found a cyclinder head from a radial aircraft engine that looked like a giant Harley or Vincent head.
There was a huge amount of material stockpiled in the Aleutians in preparation for the invasion of Japan. After the war, it wasn't worth the Army's while to take the stuff off the island. Unless the stuff has been cleaned up since then, it's still there, rusting into oblivion.
jn
I think its a good chance its true. My friend is in army and got a captured k-98 at a military auction. He paid like 50 bucks for it i think. It was in decent condition.
Gunner, they called them the 'Big Boy' -Quote:
Originally Posted by gunner
You can find quite a bit about them by searching the internet.
Here's a link with some info.
4-8-8-4 "Big Boy" Locomotives
Patrick,
I never got to operate a steam locomotive, but I got to ride in the cab a couple of times when I was young. My grandfather was a big member in a steam club back then. (They had three working steam engines and several Pullman cars)
I'm sure glad he took me on those trips.
That squire is NO "urban myth" as you put it.The Russians and the Chinese have NEVER been ones to throw ANY usefull small arms into the melting pots.Quote:
Originally Posted by SSgt's Son
Russia captured literally MILLIONS of German small arms like Mauser 98k's and the whole gamut.All were rebuilt and refinished as needed and then prepped for long term storage.Russia received hundreds if not thousands of Stuart Tanks(which they quite LIKED for recce and scout purposes)These tanks were ALL shipped with the crew's self defence weps packed INSIDE, in this case THOMPSONs both Model of 1928s and M1928A1's as well as M1s and perhaps M1A1s.It made NO SENSE to complicate their log problems re yet another pistol calibre ammo req't(OR rifle calibre wep,M1919A4's and M2 fiftys were ALSO included in the tanks EIS) so they were never issued BUT stored instead.A LOT of these weps were in the Ukraine which is "tank country" and they sold them off a few years ago to German dealers.LOTS of Type L fifty rd drums mags were ALSO included along with the slings and cleaning equipment for the Thompsons.
Russia supplied THOUSANDS of tons of WWII German small arms to client states like China and NORTH Korea post WWII and even the Viet Cong were supplied Lugers,K98s,MP40's and MG 34s and MG 42s in the early days of the Vietnam War.
A little reading of the HISTORY BOOKS would show you that these stories about the literally MOUNTAINS of captured/surrendered (Stalingrad,Kursk and finally BERLIN)German small arms are only too TRUE.I have no doubt that they haven't run out of them yet either.
In 1977(January) I was driving to work past Rand Central Airport in Germiston(a suburb of Johannesburg) and did an eyes right to see what was on the ramp in front of the hangars.HOLEY SHEEPSCHITT what do I see but the prettiest C-47 Dakota that I have ever seen STILL PAINTED DICHROMATE green with a 1944 tail number in YELLOW on the vertical stabilizer.I did a 180 and went back,made a left turn and entered the airport gate.Drove around and up to the hangars and got out.I was thunderstruck,this was a BRAND NEW AIRPLANE made in 1944.Up comes the mkulubaas(foreman) and asked me what was up? I told him that I had a few jumps out of Daks and he laughed."Kom man,let's have a look then".We climbed in and walked up to the "front office".NO SCUFFS on the deck below the rudder pedals,UNwrinkled leather seats(just like a brand new M1916 .45 holster) and nary a mark,cigarette burn NADA.Just flat brand new.THEN he told me that the SAAF had 23 of them STILL in the crates at Waterkloof AFB in Pretoria that had been in long term storage since arrival in South Africa in 1944.Due to the bush war in Angola etc they decided to put them together and use them.The company at Rand Central had the contract to PAINT them so they had been flown(20 minutes maybe) from Waterkloof to Rand Central and were being painted in that WWII earth brown and green upper with sky blue lower camo paint job all as per WWII.only difference was the SPRINGBOK roundels on the fuselage and wings.
Rhodesian Air Force ALSO used Daks and one day I made no fewer than FIVE jumps while on Fire Force duty.My only problem with Daks is that I am six foot five and have to crouch down if I stand up in one.Hercs are NOISIER by far but at least I can stand up straight .
LOTS of neat stuff is still stashed in storage; but I would think that Russia would be the best place by far to go looking.(NOT as if they would let you of course)There are also LOTS of other countries with thousands of tons of WWII gear rusting away in storage but they are so corrupt that you'll never get any of this lovely gear on account of everyone there is determined that only THEY will pocket the proceeds and as a result NOBODY gets anything.Venality LIVES in third world military institutions I promise you.How would you like to see UPWARDS of 300K GARANDS rusting away in a big hangar with a leaky roof during a monsoon rainstorm ?No,don't give me this CRAP that they all BELONG to the CMP either because they do NOT and never will.The country in question OWNS them and all the officers who control them scheme about selling them but can't agree on WHO get the loot and never will.So they will just keep on rusting away.......JR
On the subject of caches - has anybody got an Iowa parked in a secret pond somewhere that they don't need?
Not that I could steer a ship - but if you want the ultimate rifle!!!
BTW. Take look at the data on the 16" rifles - it checks out with Greenhill:cheers:
Patrick
Website with pics of an old Arms Dump with various weapons from Enfields to M60s including a field of magazines.
http://www.project-x.org.uk/armsdumpindex.html
While it's not a Big Boy my father has run 6060 and I've been in the cab when it's had steam up. I really like steam locomotives. :thup:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../8569772-1.jpg
Wow, I'm think I'm going to be sick.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon P
I thought some might like to see a few photos of the inside of the cab and Pullman cars on a 40's vintage train.
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I think the Union Pacific RR still runs their Big Boy at least once a year, for the trip from Denver to Cheyenne for that big rodeo thing they do in Cheyenne. Saw a show on TV about it, it's a very expensive and labor intensive engine to operate, and being part of the crew is a high prestige job to have.
Stevo, don't all those little flags get sooty?
And although 6060 may not be a "Big Boy", it would still hurt if it stood on your toes!
Gently steering back towards the subject of rifles: people say one is never to old to learn - so you can learn something useless every day:D
Here is today's info:
The US 16" naval rifle
Bore diameter :16"
Bore length: 800"
Twist: RH, 1 in 25 cals
(i.e. 1 in 400", which makes the rifled bore exactly 2 twists long. A ratio which seems to have been typical for naval gunnery, tests and experience having shown that increased length led to increased wear without a cost-effective increase in range or accuracy).
Mk8 armor-piercing projectile length 72"
For "everyday shooting", the high capacity Mk13 was preferred (reduced barrel wear), being a mere 64" long.
"Hand loaded" - with a lot of hands, assisted by several hundred HP of electric motors.
Offhand shooting not recommended!
Patrick
Ron Dog,Quote:
Originally Posted by rondog
I'd really be interested if they're using a 'Big Boy' 4-8-8-4. (I'll start saving my pennies now!)
If you can find any info, please pass it along.
Several years ago, Steven Spielberg looked into restoring the Big Boy locomotive that's been parked all my life at the Dallas Steam Museum, but the project turned out to be too expensive, even for him. :eek:
It's not my pic so I imagine it was just dressed up for Canada Day or some other holiday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
Wow, and there are folks who say driving a car is difficult with all this buttons and technic toys........:surrender:Quote:
Originally Posted by cafdfw
Thanks for the pics.
Regards
Gunner
I believe that the origin of those stories are largely true, but have been "embellished" with time as they have passed thru several sets of ears and mouths. They would basically come in 3 flavors. 1 Stuff that was abandonned by retreating armies and they didn't have time to blow it up. 2 Stuff that was left over at the end of hostilities and wasn't worth briging home. And finally 3 (the more interesting kind for some) stuff that was deliberately placed as a covert/clandestine weapons cache and was then forgotten about. The existence of the 1st and 2nd kinds is pretty well documented, while the existence of the 3rd kind tends to be rather sparsely documented, which is not surprising considering it "questionable" nature.
VERY few people would "need to know" the location of those "covert" caches. It wouldn't be surprising at all if some of them ended up being left behind as the people whom were aware of their existence moved on to bigger and better things in their lives. Since these would likely run afoul of more laws, regulations (both the International and domestic kind) that I can think of those people simply conveniently "forgot" about them.
Sure is a weird assortment of junk. In what country is the dump located.?Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon P
Regards,
Jim
The series of photos was apparently posted by some BRITISH ANTI-GUN group as their ultimate "wet dream".You know?Swords into ploughshares and all that good schitt !!
From the look of the vegatation and terrain etc as well as the selection shown it can ONLY BE VIETNAM.At the outset the Viet Minh were equipped with WWII German materiel passed down to China by Uncle Joe & Co and then as handmedowns to the Viet Minh who morphed into the Vietcong.British small arms like STENS and Brens in 9mm and 7.92mm(as well as .303") ZB's and the like and finally all the US and East Bloc small arms are ALL in evidence.
Pity isn't it ? All those lovely toys waiting to deteriorate to the point where they are beyond redemption and can be sold as scrap to the ever hungry Chinese steel mills so it can be made into export products AND SOLD TO US.
Remember how just before WWII the J.A.Pan Corp were buying ALL the scrap that they could get in the US and Canada ? Remember as well how they later were FIRING it all back at us too ??? HISTORY CAN REPEAT ITSELF Sports Fans and please do NOT forget this.JR
JR, I was under the impression that the dump was in Laos. The weapons and accessories had all been soaked with a corrosive brine and left out to rust.
There were some other pics posted of the same place, where they had set the piles on fire to speed up corrosion. It supposedly had something to do with a UN agreement. The pics are at least 10 years old, maybe even older.
Well, I'm not a train guy, don't know what 4-8-8-4 means. Maybe you can find out here.Quote:
Originally Posted by cafdfw
UP: Cheyenne Frontier Days Special Train To Be Pulled by Legendary Union Pacific Steam Locomotive
http://cfdtrain.com/CFDTrain/Information.html
Welcome
Ok, I've been looking at photos on Google, maybe it's not a Big Boy, those things are huge! But they do have one in Cheyenne, and looks like we have one in Denver too.
BIG BOY Locomotive- 1941- Cheyenne WY on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Hi Ron,
Thanks!
BTW, the bottom link explained what 4-8-8-4 means (Copy/paste is easier than typing) ;)
"They had a 4-8-8-4 wheel arrangement, which meant they had four wheels on the leading set of "pilot" wheels which guided the engine, eight drivers, another set of eight drivers, and four wheels following which supported the rear of the locomotive."
~ Harlan
British Rail always disparaged this legend, (which seems more like King Arthur-style wishful thinking), pointing out that the network of water towers and coal depots necessary to make it work had long been dismantled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rapyeard-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...land_008-1.jpg
Not all our readers will know that the pics above are of the famous Woodham Bros. scrapyard in Barry, Glamorgan. Happy to say that, in the end, the vast majority of those wrecks (213!) found a new home, although some were plundered to keep other restored locos running.
Patrick
The loco at the front is 35006 "Pacific and Orient Steam Co." now being rebuilt at Toddington, on the Gloucester & Warwickshire Railway, just in case any of you are going that way.
If you look at what is involved in reconstructing a steam locomotive, you will never complain again about not finding spares for your milsurp!
The steam guys have to cast, forge and weld just about everything from raw materials.
Patrick
Chattanooga Railway museum got a Driver Wheel lathe a few years back (10-15?) what had been shipped to Poland or some such. Couple of guys there tried to get me to run it for 'em, but it's just a bit too far away.
There's a big metal planer shop in that city also, which I have had do some work. BIG CHIPS!
Of course, sending driver wheels from England would probably be frightfully expensive...
The planers sure do create swarf, you want to see the swarf that comes off the planing machines that plane the rail way lines in to the switches & crossings
I just brought one back to the UK for London Underground, from just out side of Chicago, its bed length is 45ft.
Most US gear when it is no longer serviceable is now turned over the the DMRO folks to sell off. However what happend to all of the web gear the national guard had to support the M1 Garand and carbine in the 60's. Also where are all of the M16A2's now that the army is using the M4. The stuff has to be sitting somewhere.
I hope they didn't end up as this poor Inland did during the (un-named president) error. (I mean era)Quote:
Originally Posted by 400SMS
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Inland1-1.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a50/cafdfw/Inland2.jpg
I had a friend who retired as a supervisor of a large Federal Penitentiary a few years ago, and he loves all things WWII. He has a fully restored jeep, etc.
He told me that during 'that era' the federal penitentiary here replaced all of the M1 carbines they had always used with newer rifles. He said the carbines were seldom if ever fired, and most all were in very good condition.
They were told they had to destroy them and they weren't allowed to sell, or even give them to sheriff departments etc. They didn't have facilities to cut them up so they took them to an asphalt area, put them side by side, and repeatedly ran over them with a bulldozer. Then dug a deep trench at their location and buried all of the smashed and broken pieces.
He said there was a truck about the size of a medium 'U-Haul' moving truck stacked half full of carbines.
It's unbelievable how much has been wasted.
When I was in the Coast Guard, my first ship had been in service since WWII and parts we had on hand in Engineering did not match inventory. At all. So we had an "inventory correction" a hundred miles or so off California, just past where the green water turns to blue. I shed tears as I heaved a huge raw water pump off a Fairbanks-Morse main diesel into the drink. Solid brass except where it was monel - worth what? $20,000? And it went on for hours.
jn
I know this is a Milsurp site but my love of trains is about to "come out". They still run a few steam trains in Poland and a good friend of mine has a buddy in England that goes every year to Poland to operate steam loco's. You pay for doing it but I guess it is great fun. They run a regular schedule with mostly freight. There is a great rail museum on the ourskits of Krakow I have visited and for you airplane buffs there's a fantastic Air Museum right in Krakow. The cost of getting in the Air Museum was under two dollars and I had to pay about another dollar fifty to take pictures. Both are worth seeing if you get near Krakow which is one beautiful city. The Air Museum is located at what is left of a airfield the Nazi's used in WW2. I have visited Krakow four times and each time find new and interesting things to see.
In 1976, in Vienna Austria, I witnessed a rather exciting phenomenon. They were tearing down an old building, to make room for a new high rise and unearthed a cache of weapons. There was all sorts of stuff, bolt actions, several types of smgs, GPHMGs, cases of grenades, mortars, panzerfausts, pistols of all sorts and pile after pile of cases of ammunition.
It was all mostly new when hidden. I have no idea how extensive the cache was. It went under at least two other buildings as far as I could tell and followed what looked to be either an old tunnel or maybe bomb shelter system.
There was a hell of a lot of excitement for a few hours and police were on the scene in about 20 minutes. Army reps showed up maybe 10 minutes later.
Within a few hours, they had walled off the whole perimeter with 4x8 sheets of plywood and stationed security all around the area.
There was no way to get within a 100 meters of the area.
The trucks started rolling in the next morning and started to haul it all away. It took them several days to finish the job.
When I talked to the old fellow I was staying with. Herr Grubel, said it used to be a fairly common situation. He also said that by the late 50s, it had become quite rare for such caches to be found.
Herr Grubel, hated Russians. He was a POW in one of their labor camps until 1952, when he escaped and made it home.
He felt then that for every cache of such weapons that were uncovered, there were 10 more buried. During the last days of the war, weapons littered the streets. The warehouses were unmanned and unwatched. Many Austrians prepared for guerrilla warfare, until they realised enough was enough and the Russians would withdraw back to Czechoslovakia.
That didn't mean they were about to turn the weapons over to the government though.
So far as I know, all of the cache was destroyed. I never heard anything about it afterwards.
It made a big splash on their daily television for a few hours, then nothing. The gov't didn't put a lid on it, there just wasn't any interest by the general public.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cafdfw
:eek::crying::banghead::bitch:
Regards
Gunner
I've a 14ft one slowly corroding away outside a self storage warehouse. No place to put it! :crying:Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon P