New 1941 Longbranch No4 MKI and questions

Well it finally arrived his past weekend and I am happy but hve a few questions.

1.Barrel is dated 42 which I guess is ok for a 41 receiver but the rifling is 2 groove, I thought the early No4's were 4,5 or 6 groove.
2. Barrel has a line around it as in it looks like they stopped turing it before it was an even transition - kind of looks like the barrel is two pieces put together.
3. I have the LB micrometer rear sight, Lb early cocking piece and the LB hinged front band - would you put hese on or just leave it as it?

here are some pics

After just a quick look the first thing I’d say is it a post-war refurb judging by the finish. I’m not sure about the line on the barrel whoever looking at the photo it’s at the point where the machining transitions from the regular barrel taper to the knox form contour. In my opinion reinstalling the early parts you have would technically make the rifle incorrect. When the rifle went in for refurb it would have had these early parts removed and the later parts added to bring it up to the then current specification.

I agree with No4. It looks like a refurb to me, as well. I'd leave it be. It is a sharp looking rifle, you have a keeper! :thup:

Notice the breeching shim?

For comparison and with thanks to Advisory Panel member Lance, you could check the Canada - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here)

A rare 1941 No.4 Mk1 Long Branch Rifle (click here) .....

Complete with a 150 picture photo montage, this is a fascinating rifle to study its markings and components in detail, with some interesting oddities and variations from the standard No.4 Mk1* noted in the "Collector's Feedback and Comments" section of the main Knowledge Library entry. There's also information with pictured examples of how to check for a correct front waisted sight protector, versus a home made, or possible fake.

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG

Regards,
Badger

Wow, it's S/N is almost at the 15,000 mark. What's the highest number Mk1 LB known?

E T, I agree that it's been 'lightly' rearsenal'd, possibly in late 1950 or later because of the metal's finish. The N. American manufacturers jumped into 2-groove barrels quite early on and yours must've been in good enough condition to not have needed replacement. The backsight may've been a damaged Mk.I or a Mk.II, both of which would have been replaced. The cocking piece likely was originally the button style, but required replacement.

I'd leave it as is.

Brad

This one is! The latest 1941 No. 4 Mk 1 I have in my database is a 1941 1L4588. This one makes it the oldest by 210 more rifles. Interesting that it has the 1942 barrel.
Unlike the Savage No. 4 Mk1's, I have never seen nor heard of a 1942 Long Branch No. 4 Mk 1 (no star). If you know of one, please send me a picture!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmoore

Wow, it's S/N is almost at the 15,000 mark. What's the highest number Mk1 LB known?

---

Your gun is appears to be an early post 1950 CAL (Canadian Arsenals Limited) FTR. Probably early as the bolt, safety and screws are still blued.

Most (all?) 1941 LB No4MkI with '42 dated barrels are 2 groove. I have had a 1941 2 groove barrel confirmed to me but have never seen one myself. My 1941 dated barrel is a 5 groove...

It has it's original barrel (what appears to be a shim is incomplete "killing" of the phosphate refinishing process).

If there is a hole in the bolt knob it is the original 1941/42 bolt, if not it is PROBABLY a replacement from the FTR.

Install an LB MkII "flip" rear sight if you want to make it "original". The instruction to replace the MkII sight with the MkIII was issued in 1944...
Unless you plan to strip the finish and reblue it and change all of the parts for 1941/42 replacements, there is no use or reason to change it "back" to something it may never have been...

Hard to say now what sights, cocking piece and band it would have had. Probably as production of those early types ended, the existing stocks were simply used up and rifles fitted with a combination of parts depending on what stocks were exhausted first.

If you're going to keep the rifle, put whatever parts you like on it. I rather doubt all the MkI parts, including the foresight protectors were removed if they were once there, but it is possible.

JohnR has posted before that according to a then-serving armourer in the RCEME, these rifles were destroyed as an SOP when coming through ordnance workshops and the salvaged parts refitted to a new MkI* body, as the MkI* was the Canadian Army standard. If so, why would the rifle be "upgraded" with later parts? On the other hand, all kinds of odd things happen due to people having wrong ideas, or not reading or misreading the manuals etc., so who knows?

Only the women that assembled them...and no one's asked them.

That instruction didn't seem to apply in Germany where the large Base workshops at Wetter and Verl (or was it Soest?) were combined RCEME and REME. certainly the Tank workshops were, for the Centurions and the small arms workshops. I know that the small arms and ammunition Ordnance suppplies and distribution were from pooled resources. On the basis that we had all marks of No4 issued from Ord, then so would Canada............

Our tanks always had (so said) Canadian made .300" ammo supplied for the Brownings. But I was told that this was because of the Canadian change to 7.62mm Brownings, we were using up the existing .300" stockpiles. Whether this is correct or not is a a bit academic, but..........

While the two different Sterlings were kept to Country, the magazines were often cross-supplied. In fact I've still got a couple. The Canadian ones weren't as good quality as the Sterling offerings but they seemed to work OK and plenty of the Canadian/UK Sterling spares interchanged andthey all went through the system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

....While the two different Sterlings were kept to Country, the magazines were often cross-supplied. In fact I've still got a couple. The Canadian ones weren't as good quality as the Sterling offerings but they seemed to work OK and plenty of the Canadian/UK Sterling spares interchanged andthey all went through the system.

---

You mean they didn't have the roller followers Peter, or was it something else?

I bumped into a 1941 Long Branch at the Reno Big Show yesterday. Someone had butchered the butt by putting a very rudimentary recoil pad on it and sanding the butt to match (oh, the horror!!!) and had also cut the 300 yard aperture on the Long branch-stamped micrometer sight to a vee (I cried at that - that could never be a military modification). The foresight protector was also gone (the weeping continued). The good news was that it did not have any obvious indication that it had been refurbished, and still had the early Long Branch-stamped safety (before they switched to the "kicked leg" safety) and the original button type cocking piece. The serial numbers matched on receiver, bolt and magazine (no serial on fore-end, but I seem to remember that Long Branch didn't always put serial numbers on fore-ends - or is that bull poop?). The seller wanted $350 for it. It was in reasonable "used" condition, but I am not sure if the cost of the rifle and the parts to get it back to the way it should be would be worth it (how rare are Long Branch-stamped micrometer sights, anyway?)

On a side note, am I correct in thinking that UK factories supplied components to Long Branch and Savage to help them out in the early stages when they were beginning manufacture of No.4s? I seem to remember a post somewhere that said that, but I don't know where :(

Spinecracker, you seem to walk away from some good buys!

The MkI rear sights are milled, not stamped, and they're not that hard to find yet.

Likewise a LB MkI forend with the recess for the magazine cutoff: still findable.

If the "3Bs" are not cut (bolt, body and barrel), snap it up I say. There probably aren't more than a few thousand left now.

Surpmil, I have not walked away yet - I asked the seller to keep it to one side for me, and he agreed - I'm not that stupid! the fore-end has the recess for the magazine cut-off. I was under the impression that the milled micrometer rear sights with the Long Branch stamp were rather rare, but I am happy to be enlightened :) Anyone got one for sale??? :P

1941 Long Branch is indeed rare. Robert that's a bargain. If it just needs a micrometer sight (LB Early Correct one) and a front sight protector it's an easy restoration. These don't grow on trees however are available. Yes I do have those parts. Ron

Ron, PM sent

Go get it! A hinged front band would be a real deal maker.

JMoore, I will be looking at the rifle again in about 2 hours, so I will check. Anything else I need to be aware of?

Arched middle band (LB) and Canadian marked wood. Otherwise the above "wiseness" from Surpmil and Rgg 7 cover the big picture. Milled front sight protector (also LB). "Sculpted" (very early style) would be awesome!

ETA Never mind the sight protector comments... as it doesn't have one!

As mentioned previously, the front sight protector is LONG gone - more's the pity :P

Whoops - commented just as JMoore was editing his comment :P

Robert...see if the Seller will remove the rear top guard and verify if the barrel is dated "41" or "42" (depends on the serial number). If it's got a hinged front band and the milled midband "LB"marked that's a plus. You've already confirmed matching serial number on the three main components. Confirm the barrel has not been cut and remaining at 25.25" from the boltface to muzzle. If you intent on shooting this check the bore condition. Good Luck. Ron

Some more details I remembered - barrel is 2 groove and looks ok, the rear band is milled, but the front band is not hinged. The crown looks fine, and the muzzle has not been cut down, but there is a little sliver of metal that has been removed somehow from the outside of the muzzle on one side - maybe just some wear and tear. The magazine is not serial numbered (someone lied to me - the bugger!!). The seller did not want the hand guards removed - gave me some attitude, too, which I am not that happy about - also tried to tell me the rear sight was supposed to be cut in a vee, the cheek!! The bluing has some wear, but the parts that are there that I can see are all stamped LB. Think I can talk the guy down to $300?? :P

Barrel should look like this ....

See earlier post for link to Knowledge Library example ... ;)

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG
(Click PIC to Enlarge)

Regards,
Badger

The hinged band was probably one of the first things to be dropped, along with the MkI foresight protector ("trials pattern", "waisted" etc)

Looking forward to photos of your new purchase!

Tell him you'll give him the full amount if the barrel is dated '41. (depending on the S/N series it might also have a '42 bbl., which would then be OK, too.) It only requires removing the one mid band screw and shifting the band fwd a little to remove the rear h/g, after all.

Otherwise name a figure just below what you're willing to max out on, for "a pig in a poke."

Will do. Circumstances got out of my control today, so I didn't get a chance to go back. I will be back there tomorrow - if it is still there, then it is God's will that I buy it (I'm not joking - I've prayed about this!!). When I buy it (assuming that no one else sneaks in), I will spend some time doing it back up to correct configuration, shoot it a little, then may sell it to feed my Enforcer addiction. I don't exactly have that much spare cash to buy all the Enfields I want, so I have to be very picky (especially as Enforcers seem to be going for over $4000, depending who you ask..)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spinecracker

Will do. Circumstances got out of my control today, so I didn't get a chance to go back. I will be back there tomorrow - if it is still there, then it is God's will that I buy it (I'm not joking - I've prayed about this!!). When I buy it (assuming that no one else sneaks in), I will spend some time doing it back up to correct configuration, shoot it a little, then may sell it to feed my Enforcer addiction. I don't exactly have that much spare cash to buy all the Enfields I want, so I have to be very picky (especially as Enforcers seem to be going for over $4000, depending who you ask..)

---

Talking with a guy the other day about PH 5E/4 sights, he was 'moaning' about the price and stated he could buy a complete Enforcer for £400 ($600) so I asked him where and could I buy it / them.
He decided there weren't any available at the moment.

Reminded me of my old boss.
A customer phoned asking for the price of a certain part and when told the price commented "your competitor is 30% cheaper", he was told to buy it from our competitor.
His response was "but your competitor doesnt have any" to which my boss replied "when we havn't got any they are 30% cheaper also".

The days of £400 Enforcers are long gone, unless you find a seller who doesnt know what he's got.

I don't think praying will help you pursue your lusts. Might keep you away from such temptations, however!

One never knows what the plan is....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rgg_7

Robert...see if the Seller will remove the rear top guard and verify if the barrel is dated "41" or "42" (depends on the serial number). If it's got a hinged front band and the milled midband "LB"marked that's a plus. You've already confirmed matching serial number on the three main components. Confirm the barrel has not been cut and remaining at 25.25" from the boltface to muzzle. If you intent on shooting this check the bore condition. Good Luck. Ron

---

At what point in the serial number range did the barrels transition to 42?

Thinking back, the person selling the Long Branch, in-between giving me some attitude, did state that the magazine alone was worth $100 - funny, but I didn't see any gold-plating...(then again, there was much bluing left either...)

Go on 'Cracker, stop being so Scottish and buy the damn thing. Much more haggling and he'll tell you to push off for good!;):D

If you want an Enforcer just build one up. Heaven knows - and so do we - that there are enough CR1470 barrels around the UK, and the rest is easy and relatively cheap, except perhaps the Pecar scope, which will take a little searching.

BTW Enforcer experts, did the police chop the scopes and woodwork too, or just the barrelled actions?

From my limited research on the matter, it would appear that some police forces destroyed the entire rifle, some destroyed just the barreled receiver, and some sold the rifle to the public - or any mixture of the 3 options, depending on circumstances and time period.

Surpmil, I already have an Enforcer that was issued to a British police force, but I might have an opportunity to buy another that is only 4 numbers different in serial number, and was issued to the same police force in Derbyshire on the same date (serial numbers and dates all confirmed by Alan de Enfield - that guy knows his stuff).

PS. I'm not Scottish - more's the pity :P

I think Surpmil was using the term "Scottish" as a figure of speech. It could also be applied to other ethnic groups around the world but wasn't it two Scotsmen who invented copper wire by fighting over a penny, (pence)? And yes, I'm of Scottish descent!

Brian, I have nothing but respect for the Scottish - amazing people and ridiculously brave (maybe it has something to do with wearing kilts with nothing underneath in a country full of groin-high thistles??). We Brits also use the term "welching" or "welshing" for someone who reneges on a deal, but it is hardly nice to the Welsh people. and then there are the Irish jokes. With all the insulting of the indigenuous people inhabiting the United Kingdom, I am surprised that we have time for our favourite pastime - insulting the French.

Back to topic (kind of) - I had a bout of insomnia last night, so I am tired and grumpy - I hope the seller does not give me any grief, otherwise he may end up with the Long Branch shoved where the sun don't shine (which I believe is Bognor Regis on a sunday). Lucky for him that the front sight protector is missing lol

Well, I got it. Barrel is a 2 groove, dated 1942. The only part I see that is not Long Branch-marked is the foresight. This rifle, judging by the condition of the rifle and the filth under the wood, has not been refurbished, but that is for you to decide - I'm too pooped! I will start a new thread about this rifle and will post pics tomorrow or Tuesday.

Well now that we've all paid our respects to the Scots...as someone of paternal Scots descent, I think I can safely say that I admire the good qualities without being blind to the bad ones. It was Burns who wrote "Such a Parcel of Rogues in a Nation", and he didn't mean the English. You wish you were Scottish, but St. George's flag is your avatar? :confused: I wish UK residents would get over this devolution nonsense and remember that united you stand a chance and divided you fall in Brussels' lap like over-ripe fruit. But I digress...

Spinecracker, I was pulling your leg old chap. ;) Never an easy thing on internet forums I know.

Glad you got the rifle and look forward to the photos. :cheers:

Surpmil, St. George could well have been French, and the stories of the dragon-saying may be French - now doesn't that put the cat almongst the pigeons! Besides, I was pulling your leg back, mate :) The only chip I have on my shoulder is made of potato and has been fried...

As for Brussels, you should look up the comments of MEP Daniel Hannan on, I think, the Daily Telegraph blogs. Last year, he ripped Gordon Brown a new one in front of the European parliament (it is on youtube), and it wasn't before time! This is as close to politics I will discuss on this website lol.