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I am looking at purchasing a No 4 Mk1 with case & scope. The rifle is marked B over England over1941 over FTR over the four digit serial number over TR. Comes with wooden case and no 32 mk 3 scope in a tin case. How do I know if this is legitimate? The books don't seem to describe early sniper rifles. What would be a price range for this rifle and accessories?
Thank you for you input
That should be No. 32 Mk 3 scope
Hi Bob.... :)
... and welcome to the site ... :thup:
Check the 130 picture virtual tour of the 1944 Enfield No.4 Mk1(T) Sniper Rifle (Mfg by BSA Shirley - M47c) displayed in the England - Milsurp Knowledge Library.
Compare all the markings on the No.4(T) you're looking at against it. ;)
Can you post pics of the piece you're considering here? That would help answer your questions a lot better ...
Regards,
Badger
Price depends where in the world you are.
In the UK you are talking £3000 - £4000
Less if you are lucky, more if you are unlucky
Bob,
Early conversions often do not have a number of the markings we consider as 'the norm' on later rifles. Yours appears to have the TR tho some don't. Most (tho not all) of the early rifles have the S51 on the butt. Most do not have the receiver sidewall T, or if present it is often not the standard size/font as on later rifles. The D6E may not be at the rear body astride the bolt handle....I have seen it on these rifles on the knox. If you are allowed to inspect the rifle out of the woodwork then have a look at the junction of the barrel & receiver on the underside, as breeching up indexing marks are likely to be present.
Not much, but might be a few pointers there....
ATB
If in the US you are probably looking at $4000 plus. More than I will ever be able to afford, and even if I could the ol' lady wouldn't let me.
I believe it will be as you say Roger because it is an early rifle. Is will take pictures tomorrow and post. I have an opportunity to purchase the rifle for a decent price, not cheap, but a decent price. I do not want to venture a significant amount of money on something and later find out it is not correct. I do not collect British rifles but may be able to pass it on to someone who would appreciate the rifle.
Should not the scope be a No. 32 Mk 1? The mk. 3 (mk III) was a late 43-44 scope, IIRC.
It was at first issued w/ a No.32 Mk I, but this rifle is FTR marked, so it probably got the new scope upon rebuild.Quote:
Originally Posted by limpetmine
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Bob,
Thx. This only my humble opinion, but: i think the rifle itself is right. However, the triggerguard & bolt are Long Branch (Canadian) replacements. The bolt has had the original serial linished off & the 4637 stamped in its place to 'match' the rifle.
Also, someone has tried to achieve the same thing by allocating a serial number specifically to the mount......the 35whateveritis number on the mount is simply the serial number of the rifle that the scope & mount were originally mated to. As someone pointed out before a 41 rifle would have left the H&H factory with a Mk1 scope on it. The rifle has indeed been FTR'd but the scope/mount are simply a mismatch that someone has tried to legitimise.
It's a shame someone has tried to 'improve' what would have been an honest mismatch.
ATB
Roger
Thank you for your input. I sort of thought it was strange to have a bayonet serial numbered to a sniper rifle. The friend who wants me to purchase the rifle just thinks he has a four of five thousand dollar rifle because he has seen some advertised for that amount. Although he is offering me a discounted price on the rifle, I do not want to fool with someting I do not know about. I generally discover it is a big mistake to venture into high price specality weapons without buying the books first. Collectors do not mind paying premium prices for quality but do not want to pay for items they have to make excuses for. I do not want to be stuck holding a "pig in a poke".
Thanks again,
Bob Collins
Odd stuff that shows up even on this horrid monitor:
1. The FTR mark is like non I've ever seen. F.T.R. (?)
2. The scope tin label shows the bracket's old rifle S/N (Upon FTR the old S/N is generally lined through and the new rifle's S/N is added.)
3. Rifle S/N on wrist rather than the scope S/N. - Not unheard of, just not usual practice.
4. Weird serif'ed "TR". However, its an early rifle, some don't have anything...
5. Numbers stamped on the bracket "ring" top.
6. No "T" on the body side that I noticed. Even w/ an early rifle that didn't have it originally, upon FTR should have have it added. (Just a "SWAG" here.)
7. Odd looking front pad screws. These concern me more than anything, but again, this work station monitor is amazingly bad w/ photos!
ETA: Somehow missed the second page (posts #11 and 12) entirely before making this post. Not so velly smart sometimes!
I would like to see a photo of the front pad looking across the rifle action to the "back side" of the pad.
Just doesn't feel right.
The replacment bolt and guard and No3 bolt head suggest a rifle that was condemned for excessive wear in the body and stripped for disposal, then 'rebuilt' by someone. Never seen so many spurious stamps on one rifle. The chest marking "PFC Pasadena" is a bit of mystery to me. Putting the original number from the bracket on the spurious paper label in the No8 Case is a new twist; quite imaginative that!
1941 ROFM No4T and it has what looks like the same type of TR marking as Bob's. Mine was also FTR's and it also does not have the T marking. I can post pics for comparison of markings if anyone would like.
That would be grand, Enfield trader!
There's pics of my ROFM "T" elsewhere on this forum as well.
That rifle combo has been monkeyed about with too much for my taste at that price.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Collins
I would be inclined to tell your friend to go and get the four to five grand from someone else - with or without discount.
Wise words there Beery............ Better to have a genuine mismatch I feel. At least it can be optically matched and re-numbered PROPERLY as it would be after going through the Armourers shop. And who is to say that an average/good/proficient handyman couldn't do as good a job as an Armourer?
Wise words Beery................
]ncidentally Beery, I think the question of the enigmatic L59's is moving forwards
A question regarding the scope bracket and caps (ring tops). How common is it to see the rifle S/N applied to the caps as well as the bracket proper?
I've never seen that done before.
I appreciate all the input and have passed it on to the owner. Obviously this is not a "collector grade" combination. Would there be a market for it in the current configuration? With all things said, what price range should he expect on this? I know without having it "in hand" this is difficult but I am just trying to help the old fellow out.
Thanks,
Bob Collins
I can't help with prices. Unfortunately, like all collectables, No4Ts are worth what the other guy is prepared to pay. Additionally, in the UK, our price structure is completely different to that the other side of the pond.
What the rifle has going for it it that it has a box (sought after in its own right) with several of the bits of the CES. (Scope tins often go for silly money.) So it will sell, just not to me - or anyone else who has a suspicious nature. ;)
My No32 scopes are blued. The scope you are considering appears painted. My scope rings are sequentially numbered on the side "blocks". The number on the top surface of the top ring is not a standard marking. The scope number should be stamped on the superior surface of the buttstock not the rifle serial number. The FTR marking could be faked to help"legitimize" the discrepancies noted. A judgement by Ian would be a considerable value.
Neither have I, but someone was more creative and better equiped with stamps than most people.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
The odd thing is that the numbers are to the rifle BEFORE this one. Otherwise, I'd dismiss it as just more "cobbling".
I honestly don't think there's anything legitimate about the additional numbers on the rings, nor the bogus scope tin label, nor the overstamped rifle serial number where the scope number should be on the wrist of the butt (is it me or does anyone else think the rifle number on the butt has been stamped over pre-existing digits (presumably the original scope number)?). The supernummerary digits could be filed out or puddled over with weld, the label is easy enough, but it all becomes a bit of a restoration project & needs to be priced as such. Just my .02 FWIW.
ATB
Here is the markings on my 1941 ROFM, no T and has an FTR marking.
I'll bet that rifle has some of my DNA on it somewhere! :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfield trader
So you reckon they would have just overstamped the wrist of the butt with a new one? What's the correct size of the stamps - are these too big or have they simply used the same size as the original and it's almost worked?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Payne
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal O'Peridol
It did but I cleaned it ...... :super:
Prinz Eugen,
Have had another look at the pix & I'm not absolutely sure, although I've seen enough cases where numbers have been 'modified' or the original numbers sanded out & then overstamped. Size?? Would need to check, but suspect either 1/8" or 5/32". Perhaps Peter or someone with a measuring stick & a No4 T handy can tell us for sure......?
ATB
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your question, but the numbers on the wrist of the butt look genuine enough to me. The "TR" on the butt socket is a later addition by someone.Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinzEugen
It's odd to see the two rifles w/ very similar unfamiliar (to me, anyways) markings, though.
I have seen enough instances of otherwise apparently "correct" (but- not- as left H&H) and matching No.4 (T)s and L42s w/ the serial number of the rifle rather than the scope S/N on the wrist of the buttstock to believe that some units may have done it as an inventory convienence. Used to make me nuts, but it doesn't bother me as much any more. (Obviously all overstamps or new butts, but still....!)
ETA- Not trying to defend the OP's rifle's other faults, mind you!
It may not be the case here, but I seem to see a fair amount of non-T Maltby rifles with the serial number on top of the wrist.
Unless done to make the SN visible as the rifle sits in armoury racks, there is no point in numbering the stock, except on the tongue (as was done on the No4(T) from some point in 42/43 presumably.) I had an early M No4(T), roll-stamped 1941 etc., 11,--- SN range and it had no number on the tongue, but of course the scope number on the wrist. Most of these rifles seem to have been stocked in Beech as well.
To make a number more noticeable while in the armoury racking, you'll need to put the number un the UNDERSIDE of the butt.
Ease of checking while in arms racks is the very reason why the fore-end is numbered at the top.