This is a VERY NICE Civil War Rifled Musket.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07337-1.jpg


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07358-1.jpg


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07387-1.jpg


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07371-1.jpg


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07390-1.jpg


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07357-1.jpg


"ESA" inspector's acceptance stamp.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07369-1.jpg


I don't own this gun YET...but I am working on it.

Any "knowledgeable" C.W. American collectors out there that might be able to give me a sense of what this gun might be worth in the U.S.?

Two values.

To a collector-
To a dealer-

David

(Click on the bar to enlarge the photos.)

Other than the tru-oil on the stock it is very nice. Much better than the average musket on GB. If it has a nice shootable bore, it should bring $1,500.

musketshooter,

Thanks for your thoughts.

It should have occurred to me that there are perhaps three values to consider.

Collector-
Dealer-
Shooter/collector-

I would not shoot a collectable C.W. piece but that is certainly a very
real value perspective for some people.

Personally...I don't consider bore condition a factor for my collectable guns
whether is is Civil war guns or Lugers from WWII or WWI.

That is one of the interesting aspects of this passion...we perhaps see things differently depending on our particular interests.

David

Good bore ought to add 300-500 to value even if you don't shoot it- rifling is what makes it so much more effective than a smoothbore musket. I shoot mine, not much, but still, it means its servicable! That's got to be worth something. Its also an indicator of how much the previous owners cared for it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by musketshooter

Other than the tru-oil on the stock it is very nice. Much better than the average musket on GB. If it has a nice shootable bore, it should bring $1,500.

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Musketshooter, I don't see any Tru Oil on the stock? Over the last 40 years I have looked at hundreds of military muzzle loading firearms and I've seen many that were refinished and more that were not. That one just appears to be a well maintained gun that has been taken care of and the grain filled with linseed oil and (dare I say it) dirt. The polish on the wood comes from constant handling in it's early days when it was an issue weapon and proper cleaning (not over cleaning) over a long period of time. Sorry to disagree, no offense intended.

I do agree with you valuation, $1,500 should be a good price but it may go for more, they have risen by leaps and bounds since I was an active collector. My first M1863 was in almost identical condition and I bought it at the then too high price of $175. ;) That was in 1971... It was a great shooter. :)

Thanks for all the input...I appreciate it.

This Model 1864 cartridge box is also possibly available.

-Dingee & Lorigan manufacturer markings.
-sub-inspector marked on the sling.
-No US embossing on the front flap.
-The metal container is full of cartridges..I do not know if they
are period original.

Any ideas on value?

At this point I am doing my homework and waiting for a price from the seller.

David

P.S.

The glaze shown in the photos of the stock may be from less than ideal lighting.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07402-1.jpg


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07397-1.jpg


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mpDSC073-1.jpg


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07407-1.jpg


I am not sure if these are original period .58 cal.cartridges...I did not take a close look at them as I was more preoccupied with the gun.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07414-1.jpg



I own these cartridges which I believe are original period cartridges--.577 (Enfield) caliber left .58 cal. right.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ncapswit-1.jpg


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07374-1.jpg



https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07372-1.jpg



https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07410-1.jpg


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07405-1.jpg



"If I am successful" in purchasing this rifled musket...I already have the bayonet for it.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...kings009-1.jpg


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...onets002-1.jpg


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07475-1.jpg


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07480-1.jpg

For they that may be interested.

(Click on the bar to enlarge the images.)

These Civil War bullets were found at camp site somewhere in Virginia where I guess a battle happened.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...llets009-1.jpg


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The inspector's acceptance stamp shown on the rifled musket above "ESA" is for Erskine S. Allin.

(This photo was taken quickly and definitely not with the right lighting...thus ...the glare.)


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07369-1.jpg


This is a photo of Mr. Allin


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...Allin_II-1.jpg


This was his stamp. (As is faintly seen on the gun above.)
Many Civil War guns show his acceptance marking.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...artouche-1.jpg



This is part of his story.

Erskine S. Allin

After the Civil War the United States was left with thousands of muzzle-loading percussion muskets. While the barrels of these rifles were perfectly good, technological advance represented by breech-loading rifles firing metallic cartridges, had been put aside while the Nation faced its crisis. With the conclusion of the war the government decided to convert the muzzleloaders into breechloaders. Erskine Allin was one of several individuals who contributed modification designs.

Allin was born February 3, 1809, and began work at the Armory in 1829 as an apprentice in the Water Shops where his father Diah worked as a foreman. He rose through the ranks, and between October 1847 and May 1848 he served as Acting Master Armorer. In 1853 he was appointed permanent Master Armorer.

Allin’s greatest contribution was the development of the “Trapdoor” breech mechanism which could be adapted to the existing muzzle-loading rifles. In competition his design proved to be the most acceptable, and he was requested to convert 5,000 M1861 rifle-muskets to use the new breech. These were known as the M1865s. The next year, after improvements were made in the extractor, 25.000 rifle-muskets were ordered altered. The first rifles built from the start as Trapdoors – not converted from earlier muzszle-loaders – were completed in 1873. Allin retired five years later and died on September 11, 1879. In tribute, the Armory shut down on the day of Allin’s funeral. It is estimated that 250 of the 3000 Armory workers attended the funeral, a testimony of the esteem in which he was held.


SPRINGFIELD ARMORY NHS, US NPS
As Master Armorer, Erskine Allin indicated his acceptance of a completed rifle by the imprint on the stock of the weapon of an oval cartouche bearing his initials. (See above.)


A really nice example of his cartouche.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...hisTypeI-1.jpg\

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This is another "ESA" cartouche on the stock of a Model 1860 Spencer carbine that I own.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...e046Copy-1.jpg



https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC08757-1.jpg


----------------------------------------------------

All U.S. government purchased guns had to be inspected and accepted.
WWI, WWII...and all other U.S. longarms will have inspector's acceptance stamps on the stock.
The more visable it is ...the better.

It is one of the many criteria in assessing the condition ---originality (and value) of the gun.

Later handguns had the inspector's acceptance stamp on the left frame..i.e. Model 1911s and
M1911A1s often with an additional Ordnance stamp.

Example;

M1911A1 pistol, manufactured by Colt in 1942, W. B. marked… inspected by Waldemar Broberg Col. US Army.

Inspector of Ordnance;
Hartford/ Springfield Ordnance District
Army Inspector of Ordnance:
July 1, 1941-Jun.30, 1942



https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...marking1-1.jpg


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Another well known inspector and his marking; (Civil War and Indian War period.)

Inspector’s marking “O.W.A.” (Orville W. Ainsworth) 1831-1870.
Smith & Wesson American 1869, Remington’s, Colt Percussion and conversion revolvers 1831-70.


Orville W. Ainsworth served as an Ordnance Sub-inspector at the Colt plant from mid October, 1873 through November 7, 1874.

It was Ainsworth who actually inspected the guns in the serial range of 200-14,343. This was the block of guns which were used during the height of the Indian wars, including Custer’s famous Last Stand. (June 25th and 26th 1876.)



His acceptance stamp on this Model 1858 Remington New Model Army revolver.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07484-1.jpg



https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07493-1.jpg



Some other inspection markings on this Remington.



https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SC000143-1.jpg



https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SC000771-1.jpg



https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SC000253-1.jpg



David

Nit and pick, but the front band's on backwards. I reckon you'll correct that once you take it home! The cartridge box is really harder to find in good shape than the rifles, it seems.

jmoore,

I appreciate your "nit and pick"...thanks for the heads up...you have a good eye.

I hope I will find myself in the position to correct this as I think both barrel bands are on backwards.

David

That is a great set of pictures and a very nice Rifle-Musket. About the only thing I have from that era is a 1855 Bayonet plus a few cartridges.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gew8805

Musketshooter, I don't see any Tru Oil on the stock? Over the last 40 years I have looked at hundreds of military muzzle loading firearms and I've seen many that were refinished and more that were not. That one just appears to be a well maintained gun that has been taken care of and the grain filled with linseed oil and (dare I say it) dirt. The polish on the wood comes from constant handling in it's early days when it was an issue weapon and proper cleaning (not over cleaning) over a long period of time. Sorry to disagree, no offense intended.

I do agree with you valuation, $1,500 should be a good price but it may go for more, they have risen by leaps and bounds since I was an active collector. My first M1863 was in almost identical condition and I bought it at the then too high price of $175. ;) That was in 1971... It was a great shooter. :)

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I'll have to agree with Musketshooter on this one. There's no doubt in my mind that the stock on this musket has recently been refinished. I've been collecting and shooting muskets since I bought my first one in 1959, and I say without hesitation the the gloss on this musket stock is not the result of "constant handling" or "proper cleaning".

As far as value is concerned, even with the refinished stock, I would say that it would easily bring $1800, provided that the bore is in good condition.

I notice the cartridge box lid/flap doesn't appear to have either a US embossed in the leather or two slits/cuts in the leather were the oval US brass cartridge box plate had been afixed. Curious as to why not either are present unless I can't see them. Maybe used by a non Federal militia or am I missing some thing in the postings? Ray

Quote:

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Originally Posted by conductor

I'll have to agree with Musketshooter on this one. There's no doubt in my mind that the stock on this musket has recently been refinished. I've been collecting and shooting muskets since I bought my first one in 1959, and I say without hesitation the the gloss on this musket stock is not the result of "constant handling" or "proper cleaning".

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Conductor, your experience collecting goes back about 10 years further than mine but.....

Your "hesitation" or no, we will have to agree to disagree on this. Of course, without handling the gun in person no one can say for certain but I can't see where there has been any Tru-Oil or any other new finish applied.

I will say though, IF (and that's a big "if") the finish has been destroyed by addition of new finish or other improper "restoration", the value will be in the value of it's parts, still well over $1,000 but much less than $1,800.

That being said, I still have no doubt, given the information we all have, that this is not a refinished gun but is completely original as it is.

:cheers:

The acceptance initials were put on after the rifle was completed. The initials appear to be under the finish on that one, and with both bands being on backwards, it has sure been apart by someone who didn't know what the U was for.

I recently acquired a Remington made musket. It is in even better condition and my concern is that it could be a reproduction. The acceptance marks, cartouches etc all appear correct to me. Any things that I should check?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MG_00061-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MG_00017-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MG_00024-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MG_00081-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MG_00072-1.jpg


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MG_00051-1.jpg

I now realize that I am currently unable to make a deal with the owner of this gun.
As this is not his area of expertise the seller’s expectations are totally unrealistic.
This musket is located in Canada which is a very different collecting environment for this type of collectable that if it was located in the U.S.

As far as the finish on the stock is concerned I also had some concerns regarding refinishing when I looked at my photos.

Most of my photos were taken quite quickly outdoors and I had to angle the gun to try and capture the various markings which may have over emphasized the lustre on the stock……I am not sure??
Different lighting can certainly play tricks with photos.

The fact that the barrel bands were incorrectly mounted raises an interesting question.

rayq

As far as the cartridge box is concerned, I sent the photos to two experts on the subject.
One of the fellows writes the books on this subject.

“Your cartridge box is an absolutely authentic, federal cartridge box of the fairly scarce pattern that was made without the rain flap. The army dropped it in, I believe, 1863 then reinstated it some months later. The lack of the US on the cover is just an oversight and, obviously, didn't cause it to be rejected by the inspector. A nice piece.”


Although a nice piece my principal focus was on the musket, if I could not make a deal on the cartridge box that would not have bothered me.
As it turned out both the musket and the cartridge box were priced beyond reason.

I don’t see the seller dragging these pieces to gun shows in the U.S. to try and achieve retail values.
I suspect he will own these pieces for a long time unless he develops a serious change of expectations.

The top photo shows the cartouches on the subject musket taken indoors.
The bottom photo I found on the internet and shows the cartouches on a gun that was described as “minty”.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07331-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...hisTypeI-1.jpg

David

A little more background on this gun and cartridge box.

I first saw this musket about 10 years ago very quickly and did not take a close look at it.

The current owner apparently bought it from an older gentleman that was a shooter and won this gun in some kind of black powder shooting competition. (Possibly explained by the amount of additional cartridges.)

When the current owner bought it …he was leaving the original sellers house when the seller said I have something else that goes with the gun….and he brought out the cartridge box.

The current owner (a dealer in WWI and WWII militaria) has no interest or knowledge in Civil War stuff.

It is very difficult to make a deal with a seller that says “make me an offer that I can not refuse”

His feeling is that the musket is worth at least $3,000 and the cartridge box is worth at least $1,500 in the U.S.

I think he is very concerned about under selling these pieces….he does not have a good comfort level regarding their value.

At that point I felt as though it would be a real uphill battle to make a deal…..so I backed off for now.

David

I don't think it's apt to run off, unless someone just has more money than sense and wants it, regardless. (There seem to have been quite a few of those types running amok, recently.)

It's still better than your usual rifled musket, and maybe y'all can come to terms one day- much more YOUR terms than his!


BTW, JamesB, it might be more appropriate to start a new thread, rather than coat-tailing on this one- your Remington is worth it's own thread! Plus, it will get more attention.

Thanks jmoore for your comments.

While going through the exercise regarding these two pieces, my principal objective was to try and determine how correct they might be…markings etc. as well as potential values.

I suspect there might be several values that may be relevant.

-To a collector-retail. (Gun shows etc)
-To a dealer –whole sale…the dealer is certainly entitled to make his profit mark up.

My experiences with some dealers;

What I would have liked would have been a straight forward answer ...a retail buyer might pay between x&Y.
I could afford to pay between a&b.

I know he is a dealer and he probably has much greater access to the eventual buyer than I do...and I understand and accept that fact.

One of the things I realized was how resistant certain dealers were to share their thoughts regarding retail values….it was like you were trying to steal their first born child.

Some became very belligerent…..sort of like they paid their dues in tracking the values of this stuff…..and they don’t give that info away.

It is like there is an unwritten law that many dealers subscribe to when someone asks a question regarding values.

With the Internet and the Auction sites this privileged info is much more transparent to the great unwashed public….now it becomes an element of trust, reputation and public feed back….it is much harder to hide if you burn your customers.

Part of what I was doing was to try and find the dealer(s) that I might deal with for my collection when the time comes to sell…..I told them as much.

I live in Canada and I have some decent CW pieces….I now know who I will NOT contact in the U.S.

A very few fellows were very open and these are the people that I think I will eventually deal with.

My life has been spent (43 years) in a service business, I have given thousands of hours giving advice that I never got paid for but it usually works out at the end of the day.

I find the dealer world in this field either feels that they have been greatly burned over the years….or are out of touch with how most businesses have to function these days.


As far as the two pieces shown above;

As much as buyer should do his homework….so should a seller….not always easy for people that have limited knowledge about this stuff.

The seller of these two pieces is not a neophyte…he is a very savvy dealer in a very different field….sometimes hard to make a deal with a guy that thinks he knows everything.


David

Perhaps I am just naive?

I never questioned the originality of the box just that it never had an oval plate on it. I'm sure some boxes may not have plates added but that would be unusual in my opinion except maybe for a non federal militia outfit. I feel it just may have been a surplus box and never in service. Ray

Ray ,

Since I don't own this cartridge box I can only provide what I learned when I was doing my homework on this stuff.

My question;

To,xxxxxx

Thanks very much for your help

The lack of the US embossing on the front flap was what confused me.

Regards,

David


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:xxxxxxxx
Sent: March-07-10 12:25 PM
To: David
Cc: xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: An opinion requested from an expert on Civil War cartridge boxes.



Your cartridge box is an absolutely authentic, federal cartridge box of the fairly scarce pattern that was made without the rain flap. The army dropped it in, I believe, 1863 then reinstated it some months later. The lack of the US on the cover is just an oversight and, obviously, didn't cause it to be rejected by the inspector. A nice piece.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

email-question
xxxxx is the marking on the cartridge box sling an acceptance marking?

Answer:

Technically it is a sub-inspector's stamp indicating approval.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mpDSC073-1.jpg

David

Yes, he is way off base on his price for both items, too bad but good for you being able to walk away.

Collecting vintage firearms involves an element of passion I suspect.

It is easy to get carried away in the pursuit of new pieces, and sometimes difficult to exercise restraint in the heat of the moment.

If I have learned anything in this game…it is be very responsive if you are sure….and take your time if you are not.

Being sure is being educated to what you are looking at because you have been there and done that….and you know what you are looking at…. and approx. what it is worth.

One may not always have a totally accurate sense… because condition is often very difficult to assess when it comes to interpreting value for very nice pieces.

“Someone once said” …you make your profit when you buy…not when you sell.

I think one could possibly justify overpaying for a superb piece….but not if it is less than that.

David