I just bought a Winchester P17, have a problem with the front sight, as you can see from the photo , is not vertical, what's your suggestion,is there a solution without removing the barrel?
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I just bought a Winchester P17, have a problem with the front sight, as you can see from the photo , is not vertical, what's your suggestion,is there a solution without removing the barrel?
Barrel isn't at top. That is, not tight enough. Either loose or not fitted correctly. If you don't have a barrel vise a gunsmith would be required. PM to Chuckindenver and he can give you the poop.
yup,
out of index. or not tight enough in red neck terms...
someone didnt eat enough Flintstones that morning, lol.
however, not really fixable without removing the barrel, and re tightening..
your a little far away, or id say send it to me,, i fix em all the time.
Here's what I do---and it doesn't take very expensive tools.
Your sight tower leans to the right, soooooo----
1.Drive out the retaining pin in the tower and tap the front sight base off the front of the barrel.
2.Make sure the key remains tight in it's slot on the barrel and gently mark the key on the right hand side, at the barrel line----I use a diamond scribe from the hardware store, but any pointy object will do.
3.Remove the key and file a little metal off, above the scribe line---use a small file and go slow. If the key won't come out, you must tape the barrel and file in place. Use tiny jeweler's files in this case.
4.Trial fit often---put everything back on the barrel except the retaining pin and check for plumb. It does not take much removal at the key to swing the top of the tower into line!
5.When the trial fit is right, there will be a gap in the tower keyway on the left side as viewed from firing position. File a bit of brass stock to fill this gap. including a starter slot for the retaining pin.
6.The slot in the key for the retaining pin will now be out of line with the pinholes in the tower. Use a round jeweler's file to true this up. I make the final fit with the tower in place, slowly running the file in until I see a round light, showing the hole is true. File only the key and brass shim, do not enlarge the pinholes in the tower.
7.Drive in the retaining pin and you're done.
-----krinko
well,
think about this,,,the barrel isnt screwed in far enough,,why not do it right?
its not that hard, a lot more work would go into what you said, then.
setting the rifle up in a barrel vise, backing the receiver out, and re indexing. and it would be done right, id bet the extractor hangs up on the edge of the extractor cut as well, how does one fix that??
Probably a stupid question but if it isn't tight enough, why do you have to remove the barrel, why not just tighten it another partial turn if that's what's needed.
You have to examine it to see where you are in the first place. Chuck's right.
Ship this thing off to Chuckindenver. He did my '17 and did it right.
thanks,however the OP is in Italy..that gets a little sticky..:beerchug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Calif-Steve
I would caution you against tightening the barrel without determining if the barrel is in fact torqued to the correct tighteness. And what your headspace is. If you have a minimum headspace rifle, you could go below "Go".Quote:
I just bought a Winchester P17, have a problem with the front sight, as you can see from the photo , is not vertical, what's your suggestion,is there a solution without removing the barrel?
I don't have my P17 barrel in front of me. I don't remember if the front sight base had a key slot or not. If so, you may be able to cut another slot and rekey the thing.
Before I did anything I would have someone examine the rifle for headspace and determine if the extractor groove is positioned to allow the barrel to be turned a little more.
Recutting the cone and cutting an extractor groove is a pain. If the barrel needs to be replaced see if you can get one of those CMP Criterion barrels. These barrels are better than any military barrel every installed on a P17.
You are aware this guy's in Italy? He's probably not even following this thread anymore!
all 1917 barrels are cut for a sight key, even the post war replacements.
i still dont understand why everyone thinks this is a big ordeal..its not,
and very common with 17,s, even with some sold as surplus, and rebarreled by the Gov,
agree, headspace should be checked, as the case with any barrel thats not indexed enough.
to pull the receiver back and re set the index, doesnt require any lathe work, or special tools other then a good barrel vice, and action wrench.
for that matter, the Marine Corp used a standard pipe jaw on ships to change barrels.
and some type of jaw marks are a tell tail sign of a USMC rifle...{no not a pipe wrench} but a locking pipe jaw, thats used for cutting black pipe.
really.
common guys, put the endmills, tool room lathes away, roll up your sleeve, and man up here,
some grunt, and a hour, is all thats needed to fix that rifle...really.
how much special torque do you think is too much??????
heres the facts...
on a square thread, 1/8 gap is really all thats needed to index a barrel, a little more is ok, even a little less, 1/2 inch is too much, youll never get the lines close enough.
has nothing really to do with amount of pressure. though ideal, is 75 pounds.
normal is 50. iv seen them as much as well over 200 pounds.
sounds like a lot??it is.. how would one measure this ??i have yet to see an action wrench with a gage on it.
i can tell you, iv had my action wrench, a 4 foot pipe, and my 225lb butt hanging off the end before and still no luck in getting it to pop.
a couple grunts, and they usully let loose..POW!..
the 1917 is a very soft receiver, and can be tweeked very easy. however, it sis very strong..one of the strongest around.
threads like that of a Mauser or Remington 700 have a crush, threads of a 17, 14, 1903, or krag do not.
the shoulder of the barrel is the crush, you can actually set the index, and if not far enough, pull it back and reset, and push the crush a bit more,
what works for me, is a snap.
my reciever wrench weighs about 50 pounds all by itself, and if i just roll it back, and snap it tight, usually a couple times locks it right in..
the Criterian barrels are nice, better then GI??hmm not real sure about that, however, the fact that the OP is in Italy changes all this, doubt that they would send him a barrel, as doing such in a military cal, is illegal.
not sure what you mean by below {go}
to check headspace on a used rifle.
No Go is used first, if it closes easy on a no go..
a first field reject is used, if it still closes on a a first field reject, then try another larger field reject.
however.
a 1917 closing on a standard GI set of gages isnt a redflag, fire a factory round in the rifle, and look at the fired case.
chances are youlll find no problems with it...
as i stated..1917,s are soft..3.5% nickle steel and only surface hardened.
the locking lug weys wear real easy, as the 17 uses like metals in the bolt,
NS on NS tends to gaul and score,
many a 17 that i have looked at with a so called headspace issue, has actually had a worn locking lug wey.
the only way you can see this is by removing the barrel, and looking in the face of the receiver.
nothing can fix this, a new bolt may help your headpace, but turning back the shoulder, ect wont do anything but make more work..and your rifle will still close on a field reject, as the chamber isnt the issue,,the receiver is.
iv posted a picture of this, and if you look ill bet youll find it in earlier posts.
this isnt a flame, only a grasp at keeping it simple...really its that simple..
Thanks everybody for the help, since I have read of several action broken during the barrel removal and not being an expert I opted for the key modification. The gun was imported from Denmark coming from Danish army surplus and on the action there are visible sign of a vice. Because the gun had no valid proof stamp had to be tested . Commonly routine is that they shoot 2 times with a reload that exceed by 25-30% the maximun CIP limit for the caliber. Because the barrel has a small rust spot probably will change it, but first I want to test it properly with reload because it seems that the rust spot doesn't affect much the precision. Of course I will not import the barrell from US because is quite complicate(but not impossible). Have heard that are avalaible Lothar Walther Barrell but have not much information about. Over here the milsurp championship is growing fast, the most used guns are Carl Gustav, but I would like to give a chance to a M1917
Chuck is correct...tighten the barrel untill the front sight is dead vertical (index/witness mark). Do not tighten or loosen an M17 barrel to achieve proper headspace. M17 barrels should index properly when they are tightened correctly. If they are too tight to achieve index, then the barrel shoulder must be machined. If they are too loose, maybe a shim is needed. After the barrel is tight and indexed properly, check headspace and ream if necessary. If the headspace is excessive, then the barrel shoulder must be machined and the front sight rotated to index properly. Adjust the "key" as stated above.
couple things...first,,clean your bore well, with solvent ect, and likely the rust will come out..Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyno&dyno
second..
the cracked 17 is more of a myth then fact, out of hundreds of 17,s that i have changed barrels on, i have yet to see one cracked from a barrel installation.
you can buy the tools to fix that barrel correctly from Brownells and they will ship them to you.
really, dont over think this..do it right..and the rifle will give you safe enjoyment for years and years, i doubt that your barrel will ever need replaced.
as for the proof?? 1917,s were 3.5% nickle steel and surfaced hardened, and proof tested when first assembled, so a re proof round isnt really needed.
i test fire all rifles that i rebarrel, only to check function and headspace.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...relindex-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...offindex-1.jpgso you understand what {out of index is}
though this rifle isnt a 17 it is a 1903, and set up the same way.
if you look, the front sight is canted off to about 1:00 with the rifle at 12:00
then the closeup of the witness markings on the side of the receiver,
they are pretty darn close,and look to be on the money with a fast look, but a close look you can see they are off just a bit.
setting the rifle in a action wrench and vise, backing the barrel out, then re setting the marks is all thats needed to repair it correctly..
to check the index on a 1917 or P14, the witness mark is on the bottom flat of the receiver ring. just look, id bet its off just a bit.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rebarrel-1.jpgjust for giggle sake,,heres a guy that loves his lathe, so.
when he could have just done the job right with basic tools, the screwed it up with fancy tools..then,
when they could have went one step further, and reset the index, they just recut the sight key...looks great dont it?? imagine what a mess it is under that front sight, id bet that if you bumped it, it would fall right off.
Here is a photo of the actual condition of the index, I have another question, because I want to clean the action from those terrible vice marks, I would like to know it is blued or parkerized. As you can see my barrel is white, do you suggest to leave like it is or can I do also the barrel?
Those "vise' marks proove that the person who removed/installed that barrel did not have the proper tools to install barrels. There is a good chance he did not have the expertice to do the job. We call guys like him "Bubba". Perhaps he could not tighten the barrel enough to make it index with his tools and considered the job done. I'm not trying to sound like a "do gooder" but I would check the headspace before and after I tightened that barrel with the proper action wrench and barrel vise. The receiver finish looks like a dark parkerizing to me. Reparkerize the whole gun after you address the barrel/sight issue
It looks like some sort of shim at the receiver ring. That could be the culprit. Maybe the whole thing never fit to begin with.
You may be refering to the rear hand guard retaining ring. It actually slips over the receiver after the barrel is installed.
he,s right, i know exactly what that is,Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
when someone removed that barrel, they cut the shoulder, as they were to weak to just grunt it off, {or to lazy}{or in love with a lathe} so,
Sarco, and Gunparts sold them with this ring , like a Remington 700..
but hears the big issue..remember my comment on the shoulder crush of square threads? well, they dont crush, the shoulder of the barrel is the crush,
so the whole washer thing doesnt work..
so...that being the issue..the barrel is junk, trash, not safe to use. no if ands or butts about it..
the only way to make that rifle safe again, is to replace the barrel.
contact Kreiger barrels and see if the will send a 1917 Barrel over seas.
it will cost you a bit to get the thing here..
then, buy the tools from Brownells, or Ebay,, i see them now and then..
a nice set will cost about 125.00, or see if you can find them in your Country.
then change the barrel yourself..its not that hard, if you contact me direct with the info listed below, ill be happy to walk you through it.
DONT FIRE THAT RIFLE WITH THAT POS OF A BARREL IN IT.!! talk about headspace issues..
your receiever looks to be parkerized, and nothing you can do to remove the jaw marks, as the 17,s are surface hardened, if you grind off the marks, you will take off the surface hardening..DONT DO IT..
the index issues is not the big problem here, the headspace and safety is.
heres a link to the action wrench,,
you need the Mauser type with a square bottom.
you can get this done without a barrel vice if you contact me, ill help you.
i also put a call into Kreiger, and will see if they will ship to Italy.
i have a nice used Winchester barrel id sell, its not perfect, but safe to use..
Wheeler Engineering - Action Wrenches Barrel Vise
this guys he will ship anyplace as long as your welling to pay for it
Wheeler Barrel Vise & Action Wrench #1 Part #281772 NR - eBay (item 220584023697 end time Apr-11-10 11:45:23 PDT)
I have made new photo, but cannot see the ring you are talking about , you scared me about this safety issue, about head space, as I told you the gun has already been tested in order to get a valid proof stamp, by the way I will order a field gauge and try by myself. I already fired the gun and reload the same cases already 3 times and the trimming on the cases was minimal so I guess there should not be any problem, but of course I am not a professional and really appreciate the suggestion you are giving me. Please take a look at the new photo
ok, better pics,,no ring..however.
i doubt anyone other then the original US military proof tested that rifle.
but, still, step up and buy those tools i sent you links to, and just do the job yourself.
i see that someone at one time had a aftermarket sight installed on that barrel.
i dont know of any company offering proof rounds to the general public..
after you fix the index issue, i would check the headspace as well.
show us a picture of those so called new proof stamps...
In Italy we have a very complicated burocracy, things are more complicated than U.S. Even if you replace a barrel you have to pass the proof test, in the photo you can see the Italian proof stamps. We have a bureau called "Banco Nazionale di Prova" normally it serve the producers, but is open also to private citizen, with about 20$ they will proof test your gun and even permit you to see the test
hmmm, what exactly do they Proof test?? the pressure or Rockwell hardness of the surface?
or are they just taking you money, and stamping said mark on the weapon?
At first they check if the weapon correspond to the model then they test fire with 2 round that exceed by 25-30% the CIP limit for the caliber. After the test they inspect visually the weapon and then they print the proof stamps and catalog number,on the barrel they print the caliber. it is the same place where all the Beretta and all the other weapon produced in Italy get the proof test .As you check out they will give you a certificate with the serial number of your weapon that indicate the max pressure, in my case they certified 5250 bar of pressure
wow,
learn something every day, strange that they would reproof something thats been through it one time..
20-30% of its limit??not much,,but i see the point.
the 1917 is strong enough to stand much more..if you pick up a copy of Hatchers note book, you can see all this info and more.
if you get those tools i sent you a link to, you can fix that rifle yourself.
I took a look , the prices is good, but they are asking 106-150 $ as a shipping cost, if you consider that after I will have to pay custon duty and VAT, the final cost will be over 200$for a tool that I will use only one time, I think it will be cheaper to go to a professional gunsmith, but appreciate your effort to help me out. By the way do you think I should parkerize also the barrel or is better to leave as it is?
Pyno&dyno,
Better pictures would help for evaluation - for instance a photo taken straight along the barrel (not at a slight angle, as in your first photo, at the start of this thread)
As far as I can judge, the foresight is about 10 degrees off vertical in the clockwise direction (looking forwards from the breech end).
Now, if you look at first of the 2 photos you attached yesterday, it seems that the register marks on the barrel and the action line up to much better than 10 degrees - maybe to 1 or 2 degrees. This is difficult to judge, because you took the photo at an oblique angle (and once again, it would be better if you made a photo that was absolutely vertically above the register marks, so that on ecould see the alignment more clearly).
I doubt that Bubba made those marks after fitting the barrel incorrectly. So I suggest that you take a very close look at the foresight block and the ears.
Do they show signs of being mishandled with a wrench or clamped in a vice?
Do your very best to remove the foresight assembly. I think you may discover that the FORESIGHT assembly is skewed, not the barrel!
As as been pointed out, quite correctly, if the barrel was seriously out of register, then one would expect trouble with extraction. But you say that the rifle shoots OK, and has been proofed in Italy (at the Gardone proof house, I imagine).
Now for the benefit of those living in a country that does not require proof by law in an official proof house (i.e. NOT just a manufacturer's proof!) the proofing does not mean just ramming in an overloaded cartridge or two and seeing if the gun will take it. My understanding is that the proof house will also check the chambering/headspace. In fact, they will do this before firing the rifle at all, to make sure that the marked chambering is actually what is in the gun (there are enough unmarked/wrongly marked/rechambered guns around to make this precaution necessary). And after passing the proof test, the rifle will be marked with proof code, date, and the actual chambering (if that is not already stamped on the action). My local dealer showed my a barrelled action that had been rejected as unsafe by the proof house without being fired - they really do check first.
At least that is supposed to be so in Germany, and I have no reason to think that Italy is any sloppier in this respect. But the proof house will not check anything else that is irrelevant for safety, such as the alignment of the foresight.
I therefore think that it is conceivable that Bubba wrenched the foresight at some time. Maybe trying to remove the barrel? Maybe trying to align the foresight? Maybe the key is missing from the keyway? Who knows?
But I think you should do the easy and cheap thing first - get that foresight off and take a good look - before (possibly) wasting a great deal of money on refitting a barrel that (maybe) does not need it. The trouble may be in the foresight assembly itself! Key missing, foresight twisted???
At this point, you should beg/borrow/steal/copy the book by Charles Stratton "The Pattern 1914 and U.S: Model 1917 Rifles" ISBN 1-882391-29-2 so that you can learn how the rifle is assembled. That would be your best investment right now, before spending money on anything else.
And I recommend making two better photos (see above) and posting them here - I may be completely wrong!
Patrick
Patrick? if you look close at the fist set of pics, the second pic, shows pretty clear that the barrel is out of index. by 1/8 an inch.
fix the barrel issue first, then worry about the finish...you may be buying a new barrel.
Yes Chuck, you seem to be absolutely right (and I didn't look carefully enough). I repeat, a pic. taken square to the barrel woudl have made is easier to see, but it is indeed out of register.
Oh well, I still think it's a good idea if he gets the book!
Patrick
Patrick is right about the procedure done in Gardone Valtrompia
Chuck is also right, the barrel is out of index, just a little but it is.
In my opinion the gun is safe to shoot having passed the proof test.
After all the information I got from you and considered all the possible options,I think that will be cheaper if a professional take care of refitting my barrel, but I first have to know if this barrel is worth it, so this is why temporary a friend of mine has made a spline that correct the problem of the sight, in this way there are not permanent modification,and when the index will be corrected I will only replace the spline if this barrel shoot properly otherwise will find a replacement.Patrick was right about the front sight, the idiot that refitted the barrel, tried to correct the front sight with the hammer.
Considering that this weapon has no collection value because not all the pieces are winchester, it must be a shooter.
I am glad that I subscribed to this forum , you guys are teaching me a lot things
Hey Chuck.....
What do you think of the dovetail cut directly over the chamber? Does that weaken the chamber area to a point that re-proofing could be a problem?
i think its ok, iv seen many a 1903 and 1917 with the same dovetail cuts, pretty? no. safe..yes.
if you look at hatchers notebook, he turns a barrel down to darn near nothing before it finally gives away.
Pyno&dyno,
Best of luck with the rifle and I hope you get that sight to go vertical---the rifles do shoot well if the rear ladder is parallel to the front tower.
Others,
At one time I had five loose M17 barrels---a Remington, two Eddystones and two Johnson Automatics. All five were take-offs, were the same length, had shoulders in the same place (+/-) etc.
When laid side by side, with the keyways top dead center, one of the Eddy's threads could be seen to start 35-40 degrees right compared to the other four.
Screwing them hand tight into a Winchester receiver I had laying around, it was obvious that this one barrel would never fit a regular receiver----no matter how manly the wrench turner...and yet, it had been on a rifle.
This is perhaps an extreme example of manufacturing tolerances, but you get the drift.
The rifle that got the sight key trick was a Remington, with a Remington 1-19 barrel. The front sight was canted right.
One of the rifles I have now is a Remington, with a Remington 1-19 barrel and the front sight is canted left. Just enough to make unwanted windage shifts beyond 200 yards.
Lazy people in 1919? Manufacturing tolerences? The index mark might give us a clue, but I am too damned lazy to tear down the rifle.
You know how I'll correct it, anyway----so it hardly matters.
By the way, the screwy Eddystone was one of the ones I sold on Gunbroker when '17 barrels got over $100 each. If one of you bought it, I hope you don't harbor a grudge.
-----krinko
My shooter----JA barrel placed by a local guy who cast his own lead barrel bushings and could find T.D.C.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...85400660-1.jpg