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Hi to all,
tonight i was out shooting my new Carbine and tested two sorts of ammo. One was a Remington and the other a Federal. The ugly grouping on the right with the patches was the Remington, the other ones are from the Federal ammo. Distance 100 yards sitting position. Without the flyer on the upper left the grouping is at 60mm with 10 rounds.
Regards
Gunner
That's fantastic, Buy Federal. And stay out of your way!
Gunner, to answer your question, no, it is not ok. Where's that drive for German perfection we all hear about??... now, go back and do it again... and again... and again...
Seriously, that is alot better than I can do... I am at the point where I can't even SEE at a 100 yards....
I'm curious...Is ammo as hard to find there as it is here in the states?
I suggest the vertical group is breathing. To accurately check your group, as I'm sure you know, you should use the prone supported position. (sandbag if possible) I'll bet you reduce your extreme spread to the (10) ring. I doubt the ammo is that much different between headstamps.
Hi Tired Retired,
I will go back and try it harder to get a good shooter someday:crying:;)
To get ammo isnt very hard here, my dealer has a lot on stock and if you want anything to order you have to wait for max. a week. Only the prices are higher than in the last two years.:mad:
Thanks for the compliment.
Regards
Gunner
browningautorifle,
yes you suggestion is right. Thats a thing of breath control. I used a sandbag but the Remington was definately bader.
Regards
Gunner
I have tested lots of carbines for accuracy and your group is about as good as I have ever got with LC ammo. I tink you are doing well.
gunner. If I were you, I would keep looking for some good ammo that your carbine likes.:D That's great shooting.
Dass ist ja grossartig und sehr wunderbar, mein Herr! Good shooting! That is better than I can do with my eyes.
Good going.
:beerchug:
Rangemaster,
vielen Dank für das Lob! Ich bin sehr zufrieden!
Regards
Gunner
"...sitting position..." No bench rest? Neither group is exactly shabby, but when you're testing factory ammo or handloads, shoot off a solid bench rest. Eliminates the shooter's natural instability.
Hi Sunray,
yes normaly we use an sandbag for ammo testing but in this case i tested it for an Service rifle match wich we had yesterday and there is no sandbag allowed. And to be honest the result yesterday wasnt as good as this one. But with more practice it will be around this level.
Regards
Gunner
It's great to see that another M1 Carbine found a good home .
I was stationd in Hessen back in the middle 1980's . IIRC , both Jagd Frankonia and Kettner sometimes sold both M1 Carbines and Garands during that time.
I never really looked them over carefully , because -- unlike "sporting " guns -- the Garands and M1 Carbines could not be returned to the US.
It was more than a little ironic that I could bring back my new CZ 75 pistol but not a M1 Carbine.
:confused:
campperrykid,
thanks for the kind words. Stationed in Hessen, was it Ayers "The Rock" at Kirchgönß or the Rivers Barracks at Gießen ? Sometimes laws and rules arent a logical thing.
Regards
Gunner
A little over a year in Frankfurt and then up to " The Rock " for around 2 years.
I was fortunate to have a NATO allied resident hunting license during that time as well. It was great to be able to participate in the conservation activities .
Various hunting and sporting guns could be ordered from the Frankonia catalogs at the US Rod and Gun Clubs , usually at a significant discount. I generally purchased hunting clothing , gear , and sometimes hunting ammo at various civilians shops .
nice group, Gunner. I can't get any carbine to shoot that good. by the way, do you have to be in a club to shoot in Germany? thanks, duggaboy
Hi duggaboy,
first thanks for the good words. Yes you must be in a gun club otherwise you won`t get a licence to buy and own guns.
Regards
Gunner
OK, thanks Gunner: So, I just have been watching the basketball playoffs for the national championship, and have just cleaned up the shooting/loading/hunting room, and have decided since it so nice out today with sun and nice temps, no wind, to go out and try my carbine and also my Sweedish Mauser, 1900, with the new scope i PUT ON IT. the scope is a long eye releif type scout scope mounted at the rear site area with quick mounts. Hope it works. I will write to you after I get back in a couple of hours from the rifle range. Duggabouy
Excellent shooting, but that carbine would be rejected. Its hitting point-of-aim and lower (I'm assuming you were aiming at the center) at 100. A properly targeted carbine would be about 6" high at 100. I wouldn't lower the front sight blade if it were mine, just giving you another perspective. See the 100 yard instructions:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
You know what? After looking at your target again, I think your carbine would have been accepted as-is, because it technically meets the requirement.
Hi duggaboy,
i´m curios to read about your shooting and how the scope mount is working.
Thanks
Gunner
INLAND44,
many thanks for for the kind words and the advice. As you correctly assumed it is shooting correctly. The POA is a bit below the border of the black to the white.
Regards
Gunner
I wouldn't say it's shooting 'correctly' but 'adequately'. It really should be a little higher at 100. The trajectory is designed to hit the sightline at 150. The adjustable sight is marked '1- 1.5' at the lowest setting. However, if 5 of 7 shots are cutting or within the dotted line, it would pass, and I think yours just gets in. It really doesn't matter - whatever you're happy with is good, and a 100-yd zero is a very useful trajectory. I just like to keep reminding everyone of what it's supposed to be. I think military weapons should be in every way in service condition, including sighting.
I dunno.
I'm not in big hurry to file more steel off the front sight of a Carbine. On the adjustable sights , I don't even care if the 100yd zero uses the 200 or 250 marking. The old zero doctrine is almost 70 years old and I don't plan on following it blindly. Especially if the 100yd targets are closer to 6 inches than 12 inches.
I have never fired a USGI Carbine at over 220 yards in my life.
Hi INLAND44,
i`ll understand your point of view and from that side it is correct to sight it in the original distance. For competition shooting it is more common to sight in the rifles to the most useful distance and for the Carbine it is 50yards and 100yards. My one fits for both and we have no competition for the Carbines over 100yards. Do you have such competitions for more than 100yards?
Regards
Gunner
at least as good as prone. The only thing is in the sitting position even your heart beat affects the shot. When I fired expert with the M14 in trainfire at Ft Ord in 1965, I sat at every target beyond 150 meters, the rest were off hand. It made it a lot easier and you did have sufficient time.
My brother was at Bad Kreuznach with the 8th Airborne for four years when Germany was a four marks per dollar paradise. He reupped to stay longer. I had to go to Vietnam while he enjoyed the beautiful women and beer. He " can perfect deutsch sprechen ".
Sitting is great , faster than many people can believe. For me , the squat has always been a little faster , but not quite as steady.
I used the squat during parts of the old M14 Trainfire Qualification. Nothing new -- it's right out of FM 23-5 , US Rifle Caliber .30 , M1 ( 1958 ) -- pages 100 to 102.
IME , the squat worked fine for " Dutch " farmboys from the Midwest. Hey , I had never even heard of Kim Chi back then.
;)
Hi DaveHH,
yes the sitting position is very good for shooting at distances til 300 yards for me. At longer distances i prefer more the prone position for the reason that you´ve said, the heart beat.
Bad Kreuznach, nice town. Do you really think he is better with German that you after your demonstration? Sad that you werent able to have a good cold beer and some nice German girls but i´m sure that you did an very good job at Vietnam!
Best Regards
Gunner
campperrykid,
you used the squatting position? On wich distances, i used it only for a quick shot on distances of 50 to 75yards. For me it wasn`t stable enough to shoot at longer distances.
Regards
Gunner
That is a fair question.
I can not remember . The old M14 trainfire qualification began with foxhole supported position firing out to about 500 yards. The remaining rounds were fired during the moveout phase: The shooter advanced along a berm , the target appeared and the shooter had a limited but reasonable time to assume a position and engage the target. A few targets were close enough that standing made sense , the rest needed a steadier postion for an almost sure hit.
Maybe someone can chime -- Trainfire was the standard US Army qualification course for a number of years. The maximum target distance was shortened after the M16 became standard.
Shooting from the squat is an acquired skill and takes some periodic practice. I doubt that I could it today with the same amount of success. There are some variations in the position as well , including elbow locations.
Shooting traditions vary. I never really learned to shoot standing supported , leaning on the post , with anything approaching the ease and accuracy that many German shooters routinely demonstrated.
Thanks for the explanation!
Firing at 500 yards is what our soldiers didnt learn for the reason that most of the shooting ranges ending at 300yards. So you are safe if you stay outside this distance.:lol:
For the accuracy of some German shooters: It sometime looks that it is easy, but this guy do an lot of practise wich i can not effort. I´m lucky with my skills and thankful to the Army wich gave the time to practise to me.
The most used shooting positions over here are prone with no support and standing offhand. I were lucky to can go shooting at some of your famous NRA shootings or others. Maybe someday......
Regards
Gunner:beerchug:
The trainfire was different by 1965. We stayed in one spot and could move around a few feet. the scorer stood behind us. The targets would pop up at random intervals and could be 25 meters or 175 meters you didn't know. The most difficult part was seeing the targets. They were subdued colors and what you looked for was the sun glinting off as they came up. Then you had to focus on that position as you made your shot. The close targets were shoulders up size and the far ones, 250 meters out if I recall, were full sized man targets. I had incredibly strong legs when I was 20 and could go from standing to sitting by just crossing my feet and sitting down. Didn't need to use my hands. Coming up was just a rock forward and up, again without using my hands. That way both hands stayed on the rifle and saved time. My drill instructor scored me and that sit down, get up routine just blew his mind. After I had made expert he had me shoot squirrels instead of the targets, 1 hit squirrel=1 hit target. There were hundreds of ground squirrels on these rifle ranges. I can see using a squat position when you have 20 year old legs but I preferred a kneeling position over a squat. In the sitting you could lock those elbows into the knees and be solid as a rock. My drill instructor really liked me. When he wasn't making an example out of me and abusing me, we got along great. I was the only draftee in the platoon but far and away the best trooper he had. I finished 2nd overall in the cycle out of 220 men. Some guy from Washington edged me out for outright winner. My Drill Instructor wrote letters to me after basic, just to see how I was doing in Vietnam. He eventually got out, not wanting to get shot. Funny how trying to make the best out of a bad situation pays dividends.
Thanks DaveHH,
good reading, i really like it!
Regards
Gunner