Need accuracy help with 03A3

I received a 03A3 in a sporterized stock then found a correct stock, changed everything out and went to the range. With Greek ammo it patterned at 50 yards. This is from a bench rest from a sand bag, and I can shoot ok so let's assume it is not me.
I don't know anything about these rifles, is there a pattern to tighten up the screws or should they be tightned to a spicific inch lbs. What can I do to get this rifle to shoot assuming it can shoot well. The bore looks good, the trigger is fine. Fun to shoot no question but as someone said, only accurate rifles are interesting. I am hoping some of you experienced guys can help me out before I spend any money having the action glass bedded.

Thanks....
Steve Rodgers

Have you tried some different ammo? The bore "looks good", but what does it gage? Exactly what size was the shot group?

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Originally Posted by sv1kSteve

I received a 03A3 in a sporterized stock then found a correct stock, changed everything out and went to the range. With Greek ammo it patterned at 50 yards. This is from a bench rest from a sand bag, and I can shoot ok so let's assume it is not me.
I don't know anything about these rifles, is there a pattern to tighten up the screws or should they be tightned to a spicific inch lbs. What can I do to get this rifle to shoot assuming it can shoot well. The bore looks good, the trigger is fine. Fun to shoot no question but as someone said, only accurate rifles are interesting. I am hoping some of you experienced guys can help me out before I spend any money having the action glass bedded.

Thanks....
Steve Rodgers

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What do the groups look like? Random? vertically strung? Horizontal? How many shots? Did the barrel cool between shots?

try some other ammo, the Greek stuff is known to have some issues in some Bolt action rifles.

It was not so much a group as a pattern, like a shotgun pattern. At 50yrds the shots were all over the black. I have not had the barrel gauged, I did allow the barrel to cool between shots.
I had thought the Greek ammo was good, shoots pretty good in my Garand, but I will try some other commercial ammo which is a good thought.
Thanks.....

as i said, they are known to not work as well in Bolt action rifles.
and seem to work fine in the Garands..thats what they were made for.

Assuming the barrel is sound to start with, you should do much better than that. The condition of the muzzle is very important and a re-crowning might be in order if the muzzle is worn, gouged, or puckered. The condition of the throat and degree of barrel erosion is important too, altho I have one which gauges .307 on the GI gauge (just about at the reject limit) and it still prints 4 in groups.
Bedding should be checked as well. First thing to look for is that the recoil lug fits tightly and squarely on the lug seat in the stock. The lug seat can be shimmed with brass or pop can shims as necessary. Next check to see if the barrel is rubbing anywhere in the stock,except for the forend tip,and relieve this area. The barrel should rest centrally in the bottom of the forend tip with about 5 lbs pressure required to lift it out of contact. Some rifles shoot just fine with the barrel floating free of contact here, but you need to check to see if the barrel is in contact with the upper band which is ruinous to accuracy. If you find upper band contact you can shim around the seat for the receiver tang above the rear guard screw to tilt the rifle down in the bedding(kind of pivotting on the receiver lug seat).
The guard screws must also be tight. Turn the front one down "gorilla tight". Make sure the metal bushing which surrounds the rear guard screw is in place as well. One last point on the bedding; the rear tang of the receiver must not be in contact with the stock otherwise it will tend to act as an unintended recoil lug and work against the tight fit of the recoil lug on the stock seat. This condition will inevitably lead to the stock splitting behind the tang. You see this on many stocks.

Thanks I will check all of that.

Does the muzzle pass the "bullet test"?

"...as i said, they are known to not work as well in Bolt action rifles.
and seem to work fine in the Garands..thats what they were made for...."

I am not doubting this statement, but find it hard to understand why the Greek stuff would not work as well in a bolt action as it does in a Garand.

If I was told it did not live up to the wonderful accuracy possibilities of a M1903, but you couldn't see the inaccuracy in Garands which are not as inherently accurate I could easily accept that.

Anyway, if someone has more information or can quote an actual test they or someone did I would be interested.

the Greek ammo is a bit longer then standard GI.
though i dont personally shoot Greek stuff, iv had more then a few customers with accuracy and feeding issues,
being headstrong, most wouldnt listen,.
so.
had one guy, give me his rifle to rebarrel,i logged it in, took it to the range that weekend, with Match ammo, the rifle shot within a dime..
when he showed up to see his rifle the next week, i showed him the target,
he said.
wow,,is that from my rifle with the new barrel..no. its your rifle with good ammo.
had the rifle shot bad, i would have changed the barrel, and took some of his money,,however.
since nothing was wrong with the rifle, i handed it back, and didnt charge him a thing...
just do a coogle search for Greek 30-06 problems in a 1903..heck just search this site..youll find a lot of posts..
one thing that you may want to check.
a couple issues that are common.
first. someone might have installed A3 guard screws, they are a little longer then 03 screws, and it wont fit as tight as it should.
another,
remove the tang bushing, trim 1/8 an inch of one end, open it just a little, and install it back in the stock.
if your stock is missing a bushing,,get one, trim it, and install it.
dont shoot your 1903 or A3 without a bushing installed {in military trim} you will destroy the stock.
specs to tighten your guartd screws,,30 to 40 inch pounds.

"...he Greek ammo is a bit longer then standard GI...."

Found thread on bullet seating depth. Observation is that it is a bit non uniform and often long enough to seat into the rifling on some? many? bolt guns. The writer ran it through a seating die to shorten it.

I can understand that the Garand has a bit longer throat and thus M1903's show problems.

Thanks for the information, this type of explanation was what my engineer mind craved.

remember,,,
keep it simple..dont rebuild the wheel.

One of the curses of being retired, and spending 30+ years as an engineer, is you start wondering about mechanical things.

As a result this afternoon, since it was show showering here and thus I didn't ride (horse) or go to the range (AR-15 load development this month), I got interested in HXP vs M1 and M1903.

I have some, but haven't shot it in a Garand, M1903 or M1917.

Just for grins and giggles I decided to take out my trusty RCBS chamber mike and measure the distance to lands on some Garands, M1903's, and M1917.

Results do not tell me much. M1903's from 0.018 (Mark 1 3/19) to 0.118 (Remington <300 rounds since re-barrel) , M1917 0.1570 (3/19 lend lease return), and 0.1144 (JA -<300 rnds) , Garands 0.0270 to 0.172. My guess is that I am seeing mostly throat erosion and some differences in reamers.

When I get a chance I will mike some HXP, and some WWII black tip and see where that stuff lands. After I get the whole story I may organize it and report, along with the details of each rifle and some shooting results.

heres some advise..
put down your gages..
go to the range, and shoot some ammo...
sometimes you just have to have fun...and dont bust your noggin trying to figure it out...
it may or maynot be the issue, but its a start..and if it fixes. its cheaper then a new barrel.

"...put down your gages..
go to the range, and shoot some ammo...
sometimes you just have to have fun..."

But it is fun to figure things out!

Besides, I already have US milspec handloads that shoot fine in both all my 30-06 service rifles. (I have qualified with all of those I played with yesterday except the H&R)

Well I got the rifle out of the safe to take a quick look at it and when checking the muzzle I was able to stick my finger in the end of the muzzle and move it around in the opening formed by the bottom of the stock and the top of the forearm piece. This is of course why it does not shoot, now I have to figure out where the play is comming from. I am thinking that it is a good possibility that the action is not resting correctly and firmly in the stock. I don't really know what I am doing and may turn it over to a pro.
Thanks....

just remove the stock, and take a look at the rear tang bushing, as stated earlier,
likely its loose and or missing...

M1903 shoot best then there is an upward pressure (I've read 4-8 lbs) on the muzzle from the stock.

One time during the craze for free floated sporter barrels, I restocked and glass bedded free floating. Result: 6" groups. When put a dab of glass bedding on the muzzle end with 6# pressure, <2" groups (which is as good as I can see). This is all with the action bedded properly and tight.

Two or three years ago they issued HXP at Camp Perry of a lot that gave bad problems. Main problem was people could not get the bolts closed without hammering the bolts shut with this one lot of ammo. This high profile event has given it a bad name.

HXP works fine in my 03's and M1917. It also gives beautiful accuracy. The only problem I ever had was failure to fire when I had not adequately de-Greek-cosmolined a bolt internally prior to going on the range.

"... Main problem was people could not get the bolts closed without hammering the bolts shut w..."


The plot thickens. Sounds like that one lot had brass that was longer than spec. Now if, like mine, many Garands have head space on the long side, but M1903's are on the tight side the original observation would make sense.

I have something else to check on my HXP (so far unmolested in the spam cans. Purchased as a reserve)

Does anyone have a pic of this rear guard screw busing or rear tang bushing.
Thanks for all of the help.

Its simply a metal tube. Should be easily seen from top or bottom.

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if you remove that bushing, and trim 1/8 off one end, and install it back in the rifle, it will improve your groups..

Chuck - are you saying the bushing should not extend above the surface of the wood on either side?

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Originally Posted by chuckindenver

heres some advise..
put down your gages..
go to the range, and shoot some ammo...
sometimes you just have to have fun...and dont bust your noggin trying to figure it out...
it may or maynot be the issue, but its a start..and if it fixes. its cheaper then a new barrel.

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Chuck, Engineers are a strange breed :madsmile:and always have to reinvent the wheel and build a better mousetrap. Even if said trap takes a warehouse to put it in.:bow: It's a deficency of the brain.:sos: As a welder that had to work and deal with these over anallytical minds :banghead:sometimes you just have to let them do their thing while we go have fun.:super::rofl:

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Originally Posted by Mike D

Chuck - are you saying the bushing should not extend above the surface of the wood on either side?

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yes, i found that the bushings tend to move, even though you cant see it, they do move, the reason for bushings in military stocks, so that no matter what climate the rifle is in, the wood can swell, shrink, and move, and not effect the function of the rifle itself, sharp shooter accuracy wasnt really an issue, if that rifle can throw lead down range, and kill, thats all that was needed,
all military bolt action rifle were made with stock tang bushing for the same reason, if the troop was say in AZ one week, and 3 mos later in the Jungles, then 6 mos later in the Winter of Europe, then it would always run safely, and in hit a 6 inch circle at 100 yards...{maybe}
many years ago, and old shooter collector, told me to shorten the bushing,
i never really thought much of it, but one time when i was refinishing a stock on one of my 03,s i thought,,well ill give it a try,, cant hurt right?
wow, did it change the rifle, went from 6 inch groups, to less then an inch.. i still own the rifle, and since then, any shooter that i have, gets the bushing trimmed.
if you have a rare collector rifle, i wouldnt touch it, you shouldnt be at the range with a 5,000.00 collector rifle anyway..
give it a try,,and let me know what you think.
this trick however wont help the 1917, P14 or Mauser rifles with double bushings.

Chuck, I've got a Bishop sporter that does not have a bushing in it. I have an extra bushing (one in photo). Would it be wise to install it? The stock already has a small crack at the tang.

if it has a crack at the tang, usually it will have one at the recoil flat, that sits behind the front guard screw..
however, if you can glass bed the stock correctly, a bushing shouldnt be needed in a sporter stock.
it may help in repair.
heres another tip. make sure you have a gap behind the rear tang about 1/16 to 1/8 wide, and glass bed well, with a good 2 part epoxy.
i found the JB Kwik weld works well..remember to grease the action first, so it wont stick.