Guys,
Thinking about getting a semi-auto bren. anything to look out for/avoid?
thanks
Infidel
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Guys,
Thinking about getting a semi-auto bren. anything to look out for/avoid?
thanks
Infidel
Only a little. Historic Arms made the first approved semi Bren, and some of the early ones had issues. I HOPE those have been corrected, as I have one now but not fired it. Wiselite is highly recommended by many folks, but I've not seen or fired one. There is another bunch in Texas that will make you one for 2K on your parts kit trade in. Don't know about them, but their GB pictures look good. Anybody seen or fired one?
Then there are the homebuilts from Midwest Metals' design. More trouble than I have time for at this stage of life. Good hunting.
But whatever you do, make sure that you get one. You'll find that even on semi auto, they live up to the reputation of
'the finest machine gun ever to be put into the hands of the fighting soldier. Given their accuracy, reliability and simplicity, no soldier wants or asks for anything else'
BDL knows of a company that makes semi's. And if you ask him VERY nicely, he might let you squeeeeeze off a few bursts of his rock and roller.......
Go on, spoil yourself.................!
There is also a company in Florida, Project Guns LLC, that is making semi-auto Brens... I do not know whose approved design they are using... but posts seem to indicate they are a fine product.
Project Guns LLC
1707 NW arcadia Way
Boca Raton, Fl 33432
(561) 394-8228
9am to 6pm M-F
Here's a copy of something found in another forum on the matter:
A friend of a friend asked me recently about a Historic Arms Bren, and as I now have both a Wise Lite Mk.1(M) and a Historic Arms Mk.2, it may be of interest to readers of this forum to have a copy of what I passed on.
Here is the text of my email:
I have a Wise Lite Arms (WLA) Mk.1(M), and a Historic Arms (HA) Mk.2. I got the WLA direct from WLA, and the HA pre-owned. While the HA has been through other hands, most of my comments relate to the build, which should not be affected by being owned a while and shot a little, although it has not been shot much.
Initially I got the WLA, and was a little disappointed. They had not assembled the rear sight correctly, although that only took a couple of minutes to fix. I gave them feedback about it. Then I fired it, and found that the headspacing was way too big. It was ripping the heads off about 1 in 3 brand new cases that I had loaded quite mildly. I measured it, and it was HUGE. I wrote them and ended up on the phone with one of their guys. They were willing for me to ship it back and fix it, but I'd have to pay the shipping one way, which is a lot. I asked if they could send me the largest locking shoulder they had, and I'd check that out and have it milled down if necessary. The one they sent was a perfect headspace fit, and I have been using it ever since. Interestingly the guy there said that they don't headspace them, just check for function and test fire. I thought that a bit odd, and was rather hard on them in the forum. I have since changed my mind considerably. Other than those two little niggles, the build is superb, the quality is par excellence, and everything works like it should. I was shooting it today, and getting around 6" group at 100yds. That means it clearly outshoots my eyeballs and technique.
Then I got the HA. Looks real nice. I noticed that the ejection port was missing the sliding cover, and I do like a little authenticity. No problem, I have a spare lower, so I disassembled the cover from that to fit. Then I took it apart and realised why I had thought it funny the first time I stripped and cleaned it. The lower is cut immediately in front of the triggerguard, and the forward part is welded onto the upper. Part of their version of the semi-auto conversion, I suppose. Anyway, it means that I could not fit the cover, and it doesn't strip in any authentic way. That is a shame.
I took the HA to shoot, and it was all a bit gassy. I found that the primers weren't getting dented, they were getting chads punched out of them. So I compared. The WLA firing pin looks as if it were made by Enfield. It has to be elongated because of the conversion process, but they made theirs beautifully. Must have a hot guy on the lathe there. The HA extended firing pin looks like it was cut out of scrap sheet by the new apprentice using blunt tinsnips. Is is bloody awful. It is also bent in two plains. The business end isn't rounded or dressed in any way, thus the piercing of the primers. Pin projection, naturally, is way out.
Further investigation proved some other "funnies". It wouldn't take the last round out of the mag. I compared the breech blocks, and the HA one had the cartridge feed horns filed down, explaining the bad feed. I have a spare, and they are not altered for the conversion, so I thought I'd just put that in instead. Horror - it wouldn't fit. After a lot of trying and measuring, it appears to me that HA welded the upper together with far less accuracy than WLA. So badly, in fact that not only did they have to file down the breech block feed horns to get it in, they had to file down the breech block itself to a few thou narrower. The piston extension is also filed to buggery and back - and still too stiff.
Other indications of the reassembly of the upper being somewhat less than one might expect; it is difficult to get the barrel off. The barrel nut binds. I have found that this is due to a misalignment between the breech opening for the chamber end of the barrel and the centre line of the fitted barrel. I have to hammer the barrel nut to release it and then hammer the barrel forward to get it out. Re-fitting takes the same amount of hammering. Everything on the HA is too tight a fit, mostly caused by misalignments.
So, on reflection, I find that the quality of the WLA is really excellent, and other than the two minor and easily correctable items, it is a work of art that is authentic in every way. It looks good assembled or stripped. Even a museum or a re-enactor would love it. It shoots a dream and is a pleasure to own and use.
As to the HA, put it this way: I'd swap it and $1,000.00 for a WLA right now, and any time I get the chance I will. No comparison between the two.
That said, as I mentioned; the HA was bought pre-owned. Not that the previous owner could have contributed to any of its faults as described. However it does mean that it may be older than the WLA. It is serial number less than 60, and they may have made so many more since then that they have sorted out these problems. I don't know. If I was to try another HA Mk.2, I think I'd turn down anything numbered under 100, maybe higher. I'd also check a lot of things out before buying by a full stripdown and look for filing/grinding marks.
Having said that, I don't like the cut and welded lower, so if I get round to replacing it with another Mk.2, it will be a WLA. No doubt about it.
The one question that remains is that I hear nothing but good about Len Savage, He is almost legendary. I can't ratify that kind of reputation with this bad build. I am keen to understand more, but for now the HA Mk.2 is an embarassment at the back of the storage racks, I don't need to get to it very often.
Wist Lite Arms, my hat is off to you. Historic Arms - what happened?
I've read this post as well, and after having my HA in hand, (but not fired yet), I think this review is overly harsh. To knock a guy who designed an ATF approved semi design (not an easy task) for it not stripping the same way, I mean really. Mine has a well fitted and operable dust cover, so that issue must have been teething pains in production.
The fit and finish on mine is excellent; no grind or weld marks are visible even in the strongest of light. At first inspection, I see no problems with a Historic Arms semi Bren.
Len Savage never really expected to be the man actually building all of these conversions, he just kind of got painted into a corner when the folk who had contracted w/ him to do the production work bailed out. (This from a face to face conversation w/ him some years back when he was "tweaking" my semi-BREN, so the details are going.)
Since mine was one of the first MkI(m) variants he built, I can't comment on the newer ones, but he really does care about his work. He had plenty of enthusiasm for the project, but he REALLY enjoys creating new "toys" more than running a "production line".
I'll be picking one of the Texas made guns up for consignment from a friend and associate at the SAR East show in York, PA next month. I'm not sure of the price nor can I remember the name of the outfit in TX that built it but I do know it works fine.
What to avoid: a semi-auto Bren. It's BORING.
It's like buying a Maserati with an automatic transmission and a governor that limits road speed to 30 mph.
Sorry, but that's the truth.
M
Couldn't disagree more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MGMike
Yah, but its one tenth or better of the cost of a transferable example.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGMike
Have you actually shot one? Unlike a water cooled belt-fed, far less is lost in translation. Besides, BRENs were select fire, so just imagine you're doing sustained and contolled fire, versus "hosing down" the teeming hoards of paper and trash targets.
Besides I've seen plenty of Maseratis puttering around the village at about 30mph (not all at once, though!). Why bother driving it at all? Just stay at home.
ETA: I know of an activity that's MIGHTY fun w/ a semi-auto BREN- 3-gun/CQB/"tactical" matches! Show up w/ one and figure out how to shoot it on your hind legs, as well as doing rapid mag changes. For a bit of an added challenge do it LH...
agreed-full auto is more fun. But I cannot own a full auto in Canada. I can however, own a semi-auto bren, & it would be a nice companion for my semi-auto MG34.
I love my two semi-Brens both the Mk I and the L4A3 versions.
I always get blokes up at the range come and watch when I take one out for a shoot.
G
Stan from Project Guns will be at SAR East in York, PA who builds Bren semi guns. Their designs have been BATF approved. Ive used Historic Arms, Wislite and Project Guns Semi Auto builds. All have unique and different designs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
Check out Stan's system from Project Guns.
If you are there I would like to see the Bren build System you mention from Texas.
My semi MKI Bren built by Project Guns runs on 308, 303, 762x54 and 8 x56r with no problems. If you would like to exchange ideas at show. email if interested
Rob
Rob, The owner is still bringing it to me as far as I know. Just look for my banner and stop by my tables. It'll be nice to meet and chat Brens with you. Brian
Will do BLD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
You can switch them back & forth between .303 and 7.62x54R.
Mr Savage does a little milling on the receiver, then a little on the bolt face, then runs a 7.62x54R chambering reamer into the rear of a barrel. They use ZB39 magazines with a helper spring to prevent the cartridges diving during feeding. You can't load them to full capacity, but close enough, and they work.
No it isn't. It's your opinion. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by MGMike
No, thats heresy !!!:yikes:Quote:
Originally Posted by MGMike
Stan was set up right next to me at SAR East. He's a super guy. I took the Wise Lite Arms Mk.1 on consignment and Stan answered some questions for me about it too since I'm a bit ignorant when it comes to the semi-autos. It's a good tight one and i'll have it photoed and on the website soon.
Brian,
Do you get to any of the large Gun Shows at the Harrisburg PA Farm Show Complex? Had I known that you were in York I would have driven down and talked to you. I talked to Ian Skennerton a few years ago at a Harrisburg show- very nice guy.
George
The Bren LMG is a full / semi automatic weapon. It would require a very good gunsmith to remove the auto function. It is gas and spring operated and as far as I know cannot be fired on single shot without the use of the piston group which upon recoil knocks the sear from the bent. If you are going for full auto I suggest that you obtain a second extractor stay and spring and, if possible a further extractor. The other item you may need is a clearing plug as it is possible to get case separation, although very rare.
Regards
Peter Jones
Peter, it's not recoil that knocks the sear from the bent (of the piston post) but the rear end of the piston post that touches the tip of the raised tripping lever, depresses it slightly which disengages the tripping lever from the sear. The SEAR is then free to rise and engage the sear bent again for single shot fire.
Ruptured cartridges weren't a real problem with the Bren because as the breech block drops from engagement with the locking shoulder, the front bottom surfaces rotates on the breech block stops in the body. The extractor tightens up via another action and then, as the breech block tips (rotates slightly) downwards, the extractor claw levers the cartridge case out of its tapered engagement with the chamber. It's called primary extraction. Something similar happens with the No4 but in the Bren, it's a bit more complicated.
The conversion to semi automatic/self loading sufficient to satisfy the feared US BATF has already been successfully marketed there
I have obtained a semi-auto bren. I believe that all that was done was to replace the selector & weld in place. moving the selector to safe or auto has the same result-nothing happens.
One of my Brens is I think possibly a Ex British civilian semi auto conversion (before the ban). It had the part of the sear removed so that if the ARS lever was moved to auto, it still wouldn't function that way. The sear pin was also pinned inplace so the mechanism couldn't be easily removed. Its quite a tidy and simple conversion but I'm surprised it was OK for use in the UK. I may of course be wrong and it may be from another country.
I was surprised as well at how little was done. Less than on my FN-FAL back in the 90's.
In the old days of plenty in the UK, you COULD have a Bren with the barrel bored out to .410" shot cartridge and the trigger mechanism modified so that it wouldn't fire in the automatic mode. This was perfectly acceptable because it was now a self loading, non automatic shotgun. This was in the days when the authorities punished those that actually committed the crime/offence, instead of just punishing everyone. I think that call it blanket or communal punishment.
Things changed and such shotgun Brens became unlawful unless they were deactivated. Many people had them deactivated and in the early days, for about 12/18 months, the barrels weren't pinned in. Even the second barrel was deactivated by slotting, submitted for deactivation inspection and passed.
It's mind boggling!
George, The only show I work in PA is the SAR East show in York. You would have enjoyed it. The owner and most of the staff from GE Fulton and Son gunshop in Bisley were in attendance and a great time was had by all. We migrated down to a friend's place in Virginia and had a great weapons demo for them and booze fest thereafter from which we're all now fully recovered! Brian
I have two of them here in the US and the entire FCS is different.Quote:
Originally Posted by infidel
1) Is striker fired from a closed bolt.
2) The entire sear from the piston is ground flat and the piston is non-removable due to the cross pin being welded in place
3) There is a striker with a new sear machined into it that is operated by an auxilliary spring that is housed around the original recoil spring.
4) The "A" position on the buttslide is blocked by a solid area of machined weld.
5) The right side rail on the bolt carrier has been machined away as, the internal rail in the reciever has been filled in.
6) The firing pin now has a long tail on it, so that when hit by the striker , will fire the round. The piston post has a U shaped groove cut in it to accomodate the long firing pin.
I can take some pictures if anyone would like to see further questions.
Gary