Inglis 1942 MK 1m 3/1 BREN GUN AND CHEST

I have recently aquired an deactivated Inglis 1942 MK 1m Bren Gun that has the numbers 3/1 stamped after the MK 1m designation. I have searched the net, and this sight for information trying to figure out what the 3/1 means. It also came with a transit box that appears to be British, and has "Bombay" stamped on it. Does anyone out there know what the 3/1 means, or have any information on this gun? Is it possbily more of a collector's item than other Inglis Brens?
Can't figure out how to attach pictures as I am new to this forum, but will try later as time permits, sorry.

grant580

Grant,it's an Indian conversion of a MKI Bren to a 'lightened' spec hence the re-classification to 3/1.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../04/2GUN-1.jpg

Is your transit chest the small version that will only stow the Bren with the barrel off ?

ATB Kevin

Thanks for that Kevin, the barrel does appear to be shorter than my mk 2 inglis and the box is smaller than normal and can't fit the bren into the box unfortunaltely because the barrel is welded on solid.

grant580

KG, from the photos, can I assume that during the conversion from 1 to 3/1, that they milled out the recesses in the mag housing too?

I have seen one with the lightened butt slide too. Any info as to whether this was part of the mod process or was this probably qa Mk3 butt slide that was fitted?

Apparently, the Indians found that they were sitting on some 18,000 Mk1 barrels so they shortened these to Mk4 lightweight spec as the spare parts stocks for the future.............. just as we did by declaring the Mk1 barrels obsolete and issuing Mk4 barrels to ALL guns, regardless of Mk type

Yes Peter regarding the recesses.Also one has had the trigger axis pin bushed.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...0/04/RFI-1.jpg
(Ex Lithgow MKI) 63 dated SAF (Small Arms Factory Kanpur)
(Ex Enfield) 62 dated RFI (Rifle Factory Ishapore)

Can you give some details on yours grant ?

Grant does your transit chest look like this ?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...04/chest-1.jpg

ATB Kevin

Hi Kev, would have got back to you sooner, but was away at the Calgary, Alberta gun show, had a blast!
Yes, the picture you posted looks exactly like mine, colour and all. Only difference is mine has two sheets of paper on the inside of the lid outlining the proper contents, etc, and a mulitude of stencils on the outside depicting it's origin. I would love to post some pictures, as have some really good ones, how do you guys go about posting your pictures, sorry I am fairly new to posting on this sight?

Grant,glad to year you had a good time at the Alberta gun show.
To post pics probably the easiest way is to upload them from your comp as attachments.
Go to - Reply to thread
> additional options (underneath the message box)
> attach files (2nd box down) > manage attachments.
> click manage attachments and this will bring up a pop up box.
> click on a browse button and navigate to where your picture is.
> for every picture you want to upload repeat the above.
> when you have all the pictures click the upload button (bottom right)
> make sure the picture you are trying to upload is not to big in file size.

Or you can open a Photobucket or similar online account to host your pictures.

Did your transit chest get to Canada from Bombay via Westley Richards in the UK ?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...4/bombay-1.jpg

Kevin

Hi Kev

The stencilling on my bren box is exactly like yours so yes, it did get to Canada from Bombay via Westley Richards. I often say it those boxes could only talk.
Thanks for the info on attaching the pictures, I will work on that this evening as I have some really good ones of the bren and the box I would like to share.

Oddly enough there was only two bren guns for sale at the Calgary Gun Show of 800 tables. One was $1350 and was a mk 1, the other was $950 (kinda ugly shape) and was also a mk 1 and of course both dewats. I offered mine for sale on a friends table with the transit box, but it didn't sell (Darn! guess I will have to keep it?).

That chest is really incredible KG and others as it would appear to show the Westly Richards connection with the original export of Bren Guns well into the 70's. Does anyone know when they ceased trading?

What does your Canadian dewat/deact spec consist of Grant580 in relation to Brens? Our original dewat spec didn't have the barrels welded in but after a year or so, welding was the norm.

Hi Peter,WR are still trading - Birmingham Bespoke Gunmakers and Country Clothing Showroom .
I contacted them a few years ago regarding 'military firearms' and particularly Brens...... they were kind enough to reply that they only kept records of their 'finest sporting guns':)

The thing I find most interesting is how the transit chests have given such good service.The packing note gives details for the Vickers Berthier,Bren 303,Indian7.62mm - 1A,1B and the L4A3 !

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...kingnote-1.jpg

I'm afraid the chest isn't mine Grant it belongs to Mark F in Ontario.Most of these transit chests I have got pictures of seem to be in Canada.Some came with 3 barrels,MK2,Indian MK4 and a lightweight MKI.
Look forward to your pictures.

atb Kevin

Of the short Ben chests KG, I've never seen them in UK service. Could they be a locally maufactured Indian chest? Or is it a chest from another weapon adapted to the shortie Mk1/3 Brens? Any makers markings? Dates? Are they particular to India?

Hi Peter

I just found a copy of the specs for Canadian dewats dated April 24/07, A shortened version is as follows.,

In order for the firearm to be considered deactivated by the Canada Firearms Centre, the firearm must first be confirmed by a gunsmith, to no longer be considered a firearm as per the definition of "firearm"

1- A hardened steel blind pin of bore diameter or larger must be force fit through the barrel at the chamber , and where practical, simultaneously through the frame or receiver to permanently prevent chambering of ammunition. This pin is to be welded in place so that the exposed end of the pin is completley covered by weld.
2- The barrel must be permanently welded to the frame to prevent replacement
3- The breech face or portion of the breech bolt which supports the cartridge must be removed or drilled out so the bolt can no longer support the cartridge.
4- The receiver must be completley and permanently welded closed to prevent replacement of the breech bolt.
5- In the case of firearms designed to support full-automatic fire, the trigger mechanism part or component which is necessary for full auto fire must be destroyed by cutting or grinding and permanently welded in place to prevent replacement.

Further to that I think now one has to permanently weld the magazines in the mag well. This was due to some gang members somewhere in Canada that where buying dewats, or aquired some from somewhere and re-activating them.

The bad part about the deactivation and consequent welding of my bren, is now I can't store it in the case.

Finally figured out how to attach some pictures of my Bren mk 3/1


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...TCASE102-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...TCASE051-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...TCASE057-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...TCASE055-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...TCASE065-1.jpg

Excellent many thanks for the pics.

ATB Kevin

Do you want me to get the Indian Army stencils deciphered by our Indian Army Liaison Officer? I expect the ASSD is Army Stores Sub Depot because our equivalent is a RSSD - as in Returned Stores Sub Depot.

Now that would be interesting if you could Peter, thanks for that and will watch for your post.
I think I mentioned I am reproducing no 4 mk 1 T sniper boxes somewhere in a previous thread and noticed the inside of these bren boxes are painted with what would appear to be the same paint/colour as the original sniper boxes. Do you know what that paint is Peter? I would like to get some made up and start staining the inside of my sniper boxes with this colour. Hope you can help with that one.

grant580

Don't know what colour it is but the paint was called 'scamic'. I'd just mix it up for a colour match. I'll see if I can get the stencil marks deciphered soon.....

Well, I went and got some "scamic" mixed up and tried it on the interior parts of some sniper boxes I am building prior to assembly. What do you think?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...OFRED001-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...OFRED002-1.jpg

Today I goggled "scamic" and it turns out that scamic is green in colour and it's proper nomenclature is "#060 Green shade 314 Indian Army green" So obviously scamic is a colour tone, not a paint type

I too acquired a "Westly Richards" stenciled transit chest, with bren gun, that follows the same general Inglis Mark 1m* conversion to Mark 3 pattern. The base gun was Inglis 1942, with the Royal Factory Ishapore F.R. in 1961 (or 2, as I am going from memory). The indians substituted RFI and SAF parts as required to complete the guns.

They were sold as converted autos for around $800 many years ago and that price included a spare barrel, with the rifle and case

I found some pics of a 1940 Double Dovetail which has been converted, i wish this one was in my collection. It may even be lighter than a original Mk3, you can still make out some parts of the Mk1 features.https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g2042012-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g2042012-2.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g2042012-3.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g2042012-4.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g2042012-5.jpg