Russian Capture k98

I've been watching for a K98 for the past several months and located one this afternoon. It is however a Russian capture reworked version.

DOT marked on top of receiver, German Nazi markings are intact. I recall seeing two of them with the usual eagle over swastika along with several other eagle type markings. Stock is stamped with the same serial as the barrel but I don't know if this was German or Soviet practice. Bolt and base plates are stenciled with matching serial numbers. Bore looks very good, some slight pitting in spots but nothing major and the crown rifling is very sharp. Bolt seems to work smoothly, safety works but is hard to put on and off. Stock is sound but has badly chipped varnish on it, looks terrible but would probably clean up nice. It's a 1944 and the mill finish on the metal work is rough. Bluing is in good shape, some black paint over blued areas is flaking off.

Price seems pretty decent at $230 compared with other Mausers I've seen recently but I really don't know much about them. I'm not a serious collector, more interested in having decent looking and functioning weapons rather than "correct" weapons. I don't like the stenciled serial numbers. There is an import mark which is almost hidden by the cleaning rod at the end of the barrel.

I did not try the trigger as I wasn't sure if I am interested in buying but will check that before making any final decisions.

It seems like an inexpensive way to get a decent looking K98 but am wondering if I should hold out and pay more for the "real" deal.

the serial number on the left side of the butt of the rifle was put there by the Russians. by 1943 the Germans had stopped stamping the serial number on the outside of the stock (even when they did, it was on the underside of the stock).

$230 for a Russian Capture is a fair price. the electro-penciled serial numbers are also Soviet done.

if by "real deal" you mean an all matching or a veteran bring back, expect to pay well over $1000 for it. it depends on what you want it for. if you want to shoot it, the Russian capture is the best bet. if you want to just look at it and appreciate it for what it is, the veteran bring back or all matching is the better choice.

many people don't want to risk damage to their all matching Mausers by firing them so they're just collector's pieces.

also many all matching 98ks are faked and are not, in fact, "all matching". Mitchell's Mausers is one big name that does this. if you are in the market for an all matching one, do some research first to keep from getting screwed by unscrupulous sellers and ethics.

$1000 is out of my price range interest so I'm just after a shooter I guess.

I've heard over the years that late war production rifles are not the best. Is that in finish (which I can see) or in metal quality?

I was told a while back to stay away from Mitchell's Mausers for a variety of reasons. I find it curious that they seem to get pretty good premiums from their rifles though, $500 range and this for Yugo's without the German markings. I've seen this at the local auctions. It's like the people are buying the little certificate that comes with them. They do look nice but then so does the Russian capture, except for the stock and I can fix that.

a good shooter isn't a bad place to start. they're often battle hardened veterans of intense combat on the Eastern Front but can still be very accurate and fun shooters.

late war rifles were just thrown together with whatever parts the manufacturers had available. sometimes this means they're just ugly, other times they may be unsafe to fire. a dot 44 i wouldn't worry about though. that's generally only true of very late war rifles ( like an April or May 1945 made rifle)

i would assume that most of the people who buy a Mitchell's Mauser either don't know or don't care about their practices. what they claim to be an all matching 98k is nothing more than a Russian capture they clean, reblue, restamp and sometimes restock. they file down all original markings and stamp their own to make it "all matching"

Interesting to know about Mitchell's. Seems like most good gun dealers/collectors have something negative to say about them.

The price seems right. Wish I'd gotten in on them a bit sooner.

Any warning signs I should look for?

yeah, even just 5 years ago Russian captures were readily available for $199. now it's hard to find them under $250 and the ones that are usually have the swastikas peened.

from your original description, it sounds like a pretty good rifle. the only thing i can think of left to check would be the headspace, but again i wouldn't worry about it. of my 6 Russian capture 98ks 2 of them have very worn bores but still headspace fine.

Understand this was captured at end of war and was shipped off to Mother Russia. Lots of history, as it was made in Czech. and used by Germans and shipped off East. Lots of history. Price is right, too. Nice find by you!

I went up to pick it up today. Saw how he had two different prices on ammo, one for cash, one for credit so I asked if he discounted rifles for cash.

I got it for $200. I'm very pleased.

Ran a brush through it, doesn't appear to be pitting that I saw, just a little dirt and milling marks. I don't have a proper brush for this caliber so I can't get it completely brushed out but the bore is shiny as is. Has its cleaning rod but is missing the two screws on the baseplate and trigger guard and the front sight cap.

Eagle marking on stock is very faint. Hoping it will show up better after removing the shellac.

Thanks for the advice.

enjoy your new rifle!

Well, I've torn it apart cleaned the metal and removed the shellac from the stock.

Bluing is nearly perfect. One small area about a half inch by 1/16 inch with rust on the bottom of the barrel and two small spots of rust on the receiver where it is hidden by the stock. The magazine body is the only part that shows wear and it has some pitting that is consistent with some of the Nagants I've worked on, all in areas hidden by the stock. It is not rusting, it was controlled when reworked and the bluing again is perfect.

One thing I noticed that seems strange after reading about these is the lack of numbers. Almost nothing is stamped. Did the Russians remove the serial numbers from the small parts? That seems like a lot of work for nothing. Or is this something that as a time saving constraint they stopped doing toward the end of the war. The parts usually still have the small eagles stamped in them, just no serial numbers. There is also a nice crest followed by an HS and a small eagle toward the bottom of the barrel. The crest can be seen with the stock on, the letters and eagle can't.

The stock has not one but two large eagle stamps, one on top of the other. the letters are different but I haven't really had a chance to check them out. The first I could see before removing the shellac, the second showed up after. Both are much clearer now.

I'd like to try to improve the stocks appearance somewhat before putting a new oil finish on it. Get the cosmoline out, try to get uniform color, etc. I've worked with regular wood stocks before but am a bit concerned with this laminate. I've never used oven cleaner on a stock but have used a chemical called K2R. I'm concerned that chemical cleaning agents will eat the glue or cause delamination and I definately don't want that to happen.

Can you also iron out or steam out depressions in the laminate, again without the heat affecting the glue.

I'm not trying to make it look new, just cleaner.

I also read that the sight ramp should be white metal except for the numbers and grooves. For an RC would it be better to just leave it alone or return it to German war appearance? I'm not planning to try to remove the Russian serial stamped on the stock.

by 1944 the Germans didn't really have the time to stamp every little part any more. once it was made, it was assembled and on it's way to the battlefield as quickly as possible.

as far as refinishing the stock goes, i'm unsure what may be best to use for that and how to go about it safely.

and if you'd like to try to return it to as close to German issue appearance as you can, then by all means go ahead. if it turns out well congratulations. if not, it doesn't really hurt anything. i've done a lot of part swapping ans stock switching on mine to get them to look period and manufacturer correct. i'm happy with them

Moving cautiously I tried the iron with wet paper towels. Did not harm the laminate and did lift the wood a bit which is a plus. Layers are pretty thin so not a whole lot of lifting that can be accomplished.

I did some research and found that others have experienced separation with Mauser stocks when they didn't have separation with Nagant stocks when using oven cleaner so that is out. I'm not taking a chance.

It is cleaning up pretty nice. The Russians sanded it down without going with the grain (of course) so I spent the morning with some light sanding to get the sideways scratches off. I'll probably try washing it down with some soapy water later to see if that evens the staining out at all.

Lets see if I can get the photo thingy to work again:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_5978-1.jpg

This is the serial, the RC crossed rifles stamp and the eagle over swastika on the barrel. They seem to have put some sort of "putty" in the numbers to make them easier to read. I'll be taking that out at some point.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_5979-1.jpg
Top of the Receiver.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_5981-1.jpg
The markings on the barrel side and bottom. The crest looks like a shield and has the dot on the top and 13 on the bottom.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_5982-1.jpg
The sight, again with that putty substance. Is this the part which is to be white metal or would it be the underside which also has numbers or both?


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_5985-1.jpg
And a view of the bolt assembly with the electro stenciled serial numbers. I do not like these. They are very fine and would polish out easily enough but I want to keep alterations to a minimum, any advice? I suppose removing them alters it significantly from being a RC.

Here is the semi-finished product after 1 days work of stripping and one coat of BLO:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_5987-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_5986-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_5990-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_5989-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_5988-1.jpg

I plan to use some steel wool between coats and put a few more on. Really soaked this first coat in. I usually just use my finger but had to use a rag to keep up with it.

that is not a bad looking rifle. the stock is an early war Mauserwerke Oberndorf stock. just an FYI.

as far as removing the electropenciling, i have never done it. i'd imagine it would probably leave a pretty visible spot.

I think I'm going to let the electropenciling alone for now.

Can you tell that about the stock from the two markings or from the style buttplate?

If I'm seeing it right, there is an H above the first eagle and that designates it as going to the German Army? I've been doing a lot of reading on the net about these since I found it on Friday.

There are a few numbers on it here and there. The butt stock bottom just behind the hand grip has a "P". There is a 6 or a 9 on the left side in the stock groove. The right stock groove has a 5 or an S and a small case f and a faint 2 and there is a 5 just in front of the magazine plate on the bottom. There is a 3 in the bolt groove and a 6 or a 9 just in front of that. I imagine most of these if not all are inspectors marks of some sort.

I'm really happy with this purchase. I know I'll never be able to afford an all matching rifle (at least one the wife would accept) and this one looks to be in great shape, especially for the price I paid. I was looking at Yugo's in worse shape than this one for $275.00.

I did some looking around for slings and found new ones for $20. They look new though, probably not too difficult to dirty up I guess. I'm in no rush for a sling.

A 1944 dot should have a cupped buttplate stock. You have a nice RC do not try to "remove" anything. It is not going to be "fixed" but more likely ruined. Nice keeper.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I think I'm going to let the electropenciling alone for now.

Can you tell that about the stock from the two markings or from the style buttplate?

If I'm seeing it right, there is an H above the first eagle and that designates it as going to the German Army? I've been doing a lot of reading on the net about these since I found it on Friday.

There are a few numbers on it here and there. The butt stock bottom just behind the hand grip has a "P". There is a 6 or a 9 on the left side in the stock groove. The right stock groove has a 5 or an S and a small case f and a faint 2 and there is a 5 just in front of the magazine plate on the bottom. There is a 3 in the bolt groove and a 6 or a 9 just in front of that. I imagine most of these if not all are inspectors marks of some sort.

I'm really happy with this purchase. I know I'll never be able to afford an all matching rifle (at least one the wife would accept) and this one looks to be in great shape, especially for the price I paid. I was looking at Yugo's in worse shape than this one for $275.00.

I did some looking around for slings and found new ones for $20. They look new though, probably not too difficult to dirty up I guess. I'm in no rush for a sling.

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yes, the Waffenamts on the stock (WaA655) indicate it was an Oberndorf made stock. the "H" above them means it was issued to Das Heer (the army)

yeah, those sound like just regular inspection stamps. there are various things stamped all over 98ks. the Germans had an almost psychotic numbering and stamping fetish.

the new ones are pretty new looking. that's one thing i'm wondering about. the Germans made 14 million 98ks. what the hell happened to all the slings? they've probably just deteriorated over time or the leather was reused by the rifles' captors. i have one original sling and it's in pretty rough shape.

I don't know if they're all alike, but I ordered one of those $20 repro slings for my RC a couple of years ago and it stood out like a turd in a punchbowl no matter what I did to make it look older.

I've had success 'aging' repro 1907 slings by treating them with the oil used for breaking in baseball gloves. It soaks in and makes the leather softer and darker, but the repro sling I bought for my RC had some kind of slick finish and it wouldn't accept the oil at at all. I tried to 'grime it up' and it looked even worse.

I finally found an old sling at a gun show for $5 that was designed just like the repro, crosshatched, etc and had a faint 1952 on it. I don't know where it came from, but it looks good on the old RC.

Just FYI - The three slings here were light colored, stiff leather.
(I have two original 1907 slings, but they're too old to actually use them)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6/sling1-1.jpg

Hey - I just bought an RC K98 (BNZ '42) with a replacement Yugo stock (very nice, but not original). I paid $290+tax (marked+ "down" from $350) at a gun show in Dayton, Ohio. Has the original barrel and receiver with swastikas intact, and remainder parts from the Russian rebuild parts buckets. Re-numbered with electric pencil. Does have an excellent bore. (Never fired and only dropped once - on the Eastern Front).

Shot it for the first time today - boy does that sucker kick! And I hate the sight picture (I'm too old at 63!). And it shoots high at 100 yds, but believe even I could manage a 4-inch group from a rest. Fun to shoot.

Good luck - looks to me like you got a steal.

Aragorn... That's a nice RC, especially for the price you paid. I would leave it as is except putting a front sight hood on it. Good shooting.

a very nice rifle. reading this thread got me so excited about mine i decided to join the forums.

I have the rifle fully outfitted now. The final parts arrived yesterday. It is now complete with a sight hood, sling and locking screws.

One question regarding the locking screws. The front screw went in fine. The rear screw required me to back out the main screw about 1/4 turn to get it lined up. It would not go any tighter.

Would it be better if the screw were tight for accuracy purposes and if so would it be better to shim it slightly to tighten the screw or shave a bit out so it turns to the next groove.

I've gotten several emails about how I got the shellac off. I learned a long time ago from a furniture restorer to scrape off the old finishes rather than using chemical strippers. As the shellac on these RC's is not bonded very well to the surface this works extremely well on every Russian reworked rifle I've tried it with. Just use an old pocket or paring knife you aren't overly concerned with the edge and use it as a scraper. Do not hold the knife in a manner that would allow it to cut the wood and only use the minimal pressure needed to cause the finish to flake off. I can strip an entire stock in about an hour with this method

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Originally Posted by 303Nut

Aragorn... That's a nice RC, especially for the price you paid. I would leave it as is except putting a front sight hood on it. Good shooting.

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I agree! Very nice looking RC and VERY good price!
(I'd rather have an RC than a MM, even for the same price)

I think I paid $275 for my RC and it didn't turn out that nice.
I hate the sights too, and mine seems to kick like a mule too. I think it's more of a the design of the way the comb fits my cheek (?)

My 1903A3 doesn't seem to kick at all in comparison, and the 1903A3 sights are much easier for my old eyes, but there's definitely still something 'cool' about the K98!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I have the rifle fully outfitted now. The final parts arrived yesterday. It is now complete with a sight hood, sling and locking screws.

One question regarding the locking screws. The front screw went in fine. The rear screw required me to back out the main screw about 1/4 turn to get it lined up. It would not go any tighter.

Would it be better if the screw were tight for accuracy purposes and if so would it be better to shim it slightly to tighten the screw or shave a bit out so it turns to the next groove.

I've gotten several emails about how I got the shellac off. I learned a long time ago from a furniture restorer to scrape off the old finishes rather than using chemical strippers. As the shellac on these RC's is not bonded very well to the surface this works extremely well on every Russian reworked rifle I've tried it with. Just use an old pocket or paring knife you aren't overly concerned with the edge and use it as a scraper. Do not hold the knife in a manner that would allow it to cut the wood and only use the minimal pressure needed to cause the finish to flake off. I can strip an entire stock in about an hour with this method

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Some finishes are tough removal projects. However, shellac is not. I would think it far more likely to damage a stock by scraping than by using denatured alcohol since shellac will simply wash off with it.

Jim,

If you aren't paying attention to what you're doing, you can damage wood by scraping but the way I do it is pretty harmless. All it is doing is putting slight pressure on the shellac and as it does not give, it breaks away.

I've tried various chemicals over the years, those especially made to remove finishes and had no success with any of them. They turned everything into a gooey mess that 3 different coatings still required me to in the end, scrape off what was left, but then, there was risk of damage as the mess remained somewhat of a goo and you were actually scraping off a bit of wood along with the goo to get it off.

Denatured alcohol was one that I haven't tried so it may be worth a shot. But I've had very good success with my method as well with no ill effects.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

Jim,

If you aren't paying attention to what you're doing, you can damage wood by scraping but the way I do it is pretty harmless. All it is doing is putting slight pressure on the shellac and as it does not give, it breaks away.

I've tried various chemicals over the years, those especially made to remove finishes and had no success with any of them. They turned everything into a gooey mess that 3 different coatings still required me to in the end, scrape off what was left, but then, there was risk of damage as the mess remained somewhat of a goo and you were actually scraping off a bit of wood along with the goo to get it off.

Denatured alcohol was one that I haven't tried so it may be worth a shot. But I've had very good success with my method as well with no ill effects.

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i recently had success with citristrip. here are before and after pictures for one of my rifles

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5/15k29k-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../30aupet-1.jpg

the finish is BLO

First, when the germans rebarreled there rifles did they stamp the the rifle SN on to the barrel? Is there any date make on the barrel itself to tell how old it is? I have noticed in my search for ammo that there is 8mm/57mm .323 dia. ammo. is this an issue? I know these are basic question but Info about the M1 garand is more plentifull then the MOD98.

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Originally Posted by ledge

I know these are basic question but Info about the M1 garand is more plentifull then the MOD98.

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I'm not a Mauser guy, particularly, but I've always felt the reverse was true- There's quite a bit more (tonnes!) of published info on Mausers than M1s! Maybe not on the internet, but books are your friends!!!

Even as a casual observer, I've accumulated quite a few books on Mausers and variants thereof., I just haven't read the covers off 'em yet.

BTW I think all military Mauser '98s past 1905(?) are .323" bore. I'm not sure that all of 'em aren't, but 1905 sticks in my tiny pea brain.

Beautiful Rifle...where did you get it?

Aragorn
Nice results! I have been looking for a K98 of any discription for months with no luck in any price range. I cannot justify $1000 + so a Russian capture is my goal. Just hope mine turnsa out as well as yours.
I think the historical significance of the RCs is under appriciated.

I have a bcd 4 rifle. Mine was yugo capture.all matching except for the bolt. These are fun rifles mine is not the best shooter because of a bad groove in the muzzle probably from cleaning rod it obviously saw lots of action. most of the swastikas are gone as well. All of the Waffens are intact. I believe that the bcd 4 was made in the Wiemar Republic in 1944 possibly by forced labor from one of the local labor camps. These rifles are steeped in history. $200 is not bad for a shooter K98. Enjoy your rifle and think about the men who carried it and used it, Thats hat makes collecting milsurps fun.

Attachment 34573Attachment 34574Attachment 34575Attachment 34576Attachment 34577Attachment 34573Attachment 34574Attachment 34575Attachment 34576In the intrest of not posting another new thread here are my two RCs purchased this weekend. Both 1941 one is duv one bnz.Sorry about the double picture posting.I am ab bit curious about the streight bolt handle on the dnz if anyone has input.

There is a rifle called the "Standard Modell" which has a straight bolt and was the immediate predecessor to the K98 which the bolt could be from. Also a VZ24 possibly. Not sure if either is interchangable. They also made some contract rifles for other nations that had straight bolts. When the war started, many of these contracts were cancelled and transferred to the German military.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY

I am ab bit curious about the streight bolt handle on the dnz if anyone has input.

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Could be an older Gew 98 bolt from WWI.

There may be Imperial German matkings near the bolt handle root.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Could be an older Gew 98 bolt from WWI.

There may be Imperial German matkings near the bolt handle root.

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I will try to snap some clear photos of the bolt markings and post for comment.

So, did you get a good deal on them. I like that you got a bayonet and sling with at least one of them, saves a lot of looking and running around. Looks like you have to get a pair of sight hoods and a cleaning rod, make sure its the right length. Do they have their locking screws? Most RC's don't. Be careful with the butt stocks so you don't get rid of the marks there by accident. Mine couldn't even be seen until after I got the shellac off.

Aragorn
$300 ea. a bit much but. Bayonet $60 feel pretty good on that it is nice. Sling repo.One 10" cleaning rod 2 sight hoods one frount trigger guard screw and four capture screws is what I lack and I have them located. The solid stock cleaned up with 50/50 trup/blo apparently no shellac. The lamanated one had very little shellac but the only smooth place on the stock is where Ivan sanded the marks off the left side of the butt the rest is uber rough. Might just blo and leave it as is with the period repair to the lower butt face.

Those prices aren't bad today. It's been over two years since I bought mine. Hardly seems like it. The supply is gone so the prices are going up. The laminate stocks are tough to sand. They seem to have different hardnesses to the two colors of wood. If you do sand it, use a block, not your fingers or thumbs. The block will span the woods, your fingers will just make the softer one deeper. You can try lifting the dents out with an iron. It helps some.

ARAGORN
Still in the debate phase as to yes or no on the sanding. It may have been sanded previously it is a bit furry (for lack of a better term) which I think may be due to the differintial in the woods. The laminate stock will have to be dark unless it is sanded Way Down. I touched up Ivan's belt sanded area on the left butt with a bit of stain and it matches the rest much better now so I may just BLO until I obtain a uniform finish.The blue is nice on both k98s . I was under the impression they were parlerized or similar process rather than blued. I am very impressed with the workmanship on the k98. The bayonet is such a close fit I was sure it would stick but no just a perfect fit. Passed up an MAS 36 in as new condition after I spotted the second (lamanated stock) k98 with the unpeened swastikas. Any experiance with the MAS?
Interesting rifle but I knew next to nothing about it so I Mausered up.

I've been trying to get a MAS for a while now. I need that and a Lebel from WWI. Missed a Lebel at last weekends gun auction because I didn't stick around and I figured it would go high, it went for $75 of course. Ammo for the MAS will be hard to get, it does not have a safety, there are plenty of like new specimens around that they shouldn't be getting much of a premium for them, some idiot at the local gun auction keeps bidding them up higher than they are worth, done it to two now. Pre German occupation commands a premium, sometimes a stiff one but the trade off is they are usually not in like new condition. The bayonet fits inside the rifle and should be with it at time of purchase. Most have been reconditioned, the rifles, not the bayonets. Odd looking little thing with the forward bolt. But if you want WWII rifles from each nation, you have to get it. $300 is the max for a like new post German occupation rifle. Might be more for a not like new pre Germany occupation rifle, not a lot more but maybe $50-$75. Better condition pre occupation could bring up to $450.

If you want to get the dirt and grease out of the stock to lighten it, use some citri-strip on it. Won't hurt the laminate, I used harsher stuff on mine. Three applications with scrubbing and washing in between should lighten it up. I do remember sanding mine some because the Russians seemed to sand everything across the grain rather than with it and I wanted it done with the grain. It also got rid of the fuzzys. I didn't sand any further than to get rid of the previous sanding marks.

Aragorn
Lightly steel wooled and reoiled and am satisfied with the apperance. I should be able to post photos Wed. I made an additional discovery upon closer examination of the 1941 duv laminated rifle. No import marks. I thought all the Rcs were import marked.

RC's were distributed to the allies of the Soviet Union. Perhaps this one found it's way to Vietnam and was brought back by someone from there. Anything's possible.

Attachment 34695Attachment 34696
Photo of the bolt markings on the dnz. Forgot to take a full shot of the duv after cleaning the stock but hear is a small indication of the results in the second photo.Much better. I will take a wide shot this week end.

Upper symbol looks like the Prussian Eagle. Looks like a Gew 88 bolt.

Make that Gew 98, not 88. Now you have to get a cleaning kit. I finally got one today at the flea market. Only thing I got. 1940 MUNDLOS

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

Make that Gew 98, not 88. Now you have to get a cleaning kit.

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I have begun the search. I am thinking about a replacement bent bolt if I come across one. Repro sling looks much better after a bit of lanolin was applied. duv now sans "sore thumb" sling. As a lefty I think I will have to remove the sling while shooting to prevent catching the end sling fastening bit in the mouth.

A wartime cleaning kit will have the eagle over the swastika on it. Should be at minimum a metal oiler, not plastic, an beaded chain, a large brush, a small brush and a piece of rope. Some will also have a base plate tool but I've heard they are uncommon, mine does not have it. Should also be stamped with the manufacturer and a date. They made them for many years after the war too. They usually have plastic oilers and obviously won't have the eagle over swastika.

I had a K98k in Viet Nam. As best as I remember it was parkerized. It had a big chunk missing from the receiver ring and I gave it away. I saw piles of Mausers in RVN. Never saw any 8mm ammo, either!