Carcano Rifles

I didn't see anywhere to put this as there doesn't seem to be a category for them.

I've been seeing a lot of these lately. It had been my "goal" to purchase the major rifles from each of the major participants in WWII. But, no matter how good a condition these things are, they still feel (and look) like toys. I can't bring myself to buy one.

I did see a nice one the other evening which not knowing a lot about them was probably of WWI vintage. It had the "feel" of a rifle and that one I would have bought if it hadn't had a continuous line of deep pitting that followed the entire length of the barrel where it met the stock on both sides. Who knows what it looked like under the stock.

I know it is the rifle used to assassinate Kennedy and some blame the lack of interest in these on that. But they really don't feel like good guns. Did they use some sort of lightweight wood for their stocks? The metal seems thinner than most other models which could also be a contributing factor I guess. I know they are safe, I've read the "pros" of them on other sites.

One of the rifles I looked at the other evening didn't even have adjustable sights. It appeared to be a carbine, had a folding spike bayonet and a really blocky rear sight that appeared to be made out of white metal that was painted black. (The nice rifle was the longest Carcano I've seen).

They had five of them in the store, all were around $100. None had the clips to go with them making them very hard to load single shots. I'm sure these are available somewhere.

This is not the last rifle I need, I still don't have a Garand or an Ariska so I'm in no rush.

What exactly should I be looking for here?

Something that appeals to your eye!

I've grown to like them, but haven't found a good WWI infantry rifle yet. They were everywhere back when I didn't like 'em.

The fixed sight models do well by putting the top of the front sight in the very bottom of the rear sight notch at 100yd/m. "Normal" sight alignment works at roughly 300m.

Placed side by side its easy to see that the metalwork is about 3/4 to 7/8 scale of most other rifles. Makes them relatively light - which is good if you're having to lug it about all day.

Good bores are esp. important in the 6.5mm versions if you intend on shooting them.

Most 7.35mm M38s went to Finland and will be "SA" in a box marked.

Just picked up 5 boxes (one never opened!) of 7.35 ammo on clips a couple of days ago. It turns up- you just never know when!

There is nothing wrong with a Carcano in good condition. They can be one of the smoothest surest feeding designs around.
The 1941 long rifle is as substantial as any other and a better rifle and as far as I care a better rifle than what the Ruskies, French and Japanese used.

The Collector Grade Book "Desperate Measures" about the end of WWII speaks quite a bit about them as one of the major arms of the Volksstrum.

PO Ackley, tested the Carcano actions and found them to be much stronger than most people realised. Steyr of Austria built them in 8x57 and many were issued late in WWII to the Volksturm.

Ackley couldn't blow one up. He felt the only reason the Italians used such an anemic load, was because they chose to. They felt, and rightfully so, that the round was potent enough for the ranges it would be used at. The rest is history. It will be ok with a normal .264 diameter bullet but the Italians used a .268 diameter, 160 grain bullet. Hornady makes these bullets.

They also came in a 7.35mm version. That stuff is really hard to find.

With the proper bullets, they shoot very well. They are very mild recoiling with the original load. I have one of the Steyr built 8x57 carbines. It is beat to hell on the outside, with a pristine bore. Very accurate but kicks like the proverbial mule. It is basically just a conversation piece as it's just to rude to shoot. It also has some Hebrew markings on the butt.

Oddly, I can't find much surplus 6.5, only the 7.35 seems to turn up.

The 7.35 seems to be an early intermediate range/"assault" rifle round in concept, just done on the cheap by retaining the old "big" case size. It seems that the search for the perfectly "balanced" combat round has been going on for a while...

In Canada, we get the odd trickle of Federal white box in 6.5. The only 7.35 I've come across has been odd rounds at gun shows.

The 7.35 was actually going to be the next cartridge for Italy. They just ended up in a war time position faster than they realised and retained the 6.5.

The UK did the same thing with the 303Brit and the P13 rifles just before WWI. They got into a large shooting war and just didn't have time to revamp their entire system.

There really isn't a lot of difference in power between the 6.5 and 7.35, just bullet diameter and a bit less weight.

Yes, big problems with Carcanos and most of them not the fault of the basic design. Love it or hate it, the Carcano actually is a well-designed rifle for the period, well-made of good materials, strong enough to handle almost anything you could cram into it, fast-handling and fast-loading and fast-reloading. With the right ammunition, it was about as accurate as anything else out there, with the possible exception of the Ross. Italian tests through the 1960s against US, Breda and Beretta Garands showed the old Carcanos always at the top in the accuracy trials. The WORST thing you can say about a Carcano is that they are not finished as pretty as the others.

I have been shooting Carcanos off and on since about 1963 and generally have found it to be a positive experience. The biggest problem with Carcano ACCURACY is that the original ammo is older than most of US... and the handloading manuals tell you to load with a standard 6.5mm bullet, which can be anything from .262 to .264. Original Italian ammunition had bullets of .266 and .267 diameter. Shooting a .262 or .263 through a rifle designed for .267 is somewhat akin to shooting .270 slugs through a 7mm: accuracy WILL be bad.

But that is no problem these days: proper brass is available from the lovely people at Hornady, Partizan and Norma, the correct bullets are a standard item from Hornady, the brass available takes standard Boxer .210" primers instead of the special .204" Berdan type. You select your powder by your barrel length, of course. The little short Carbines are very good with IMR-4198. I have a Model 1941 and it is excellent with IMR-4895. Hey! Any time I can get a genuine 1-MOA rifle for $56, I'll take it: that's what I am getting from the 41, using standard Remington bulk-pack .264s.

The basic Carcano came out in the 1891 pattern, a Rifle, a Carbine and a Special Troops rifle. Original Rifles had the long barrel standard in the 1890s: 30.75", throwing a .266" bullet of 163 grains at 2395 ft/sec @ only 38,300PSI pressure. The Carbine barrel was only just over 17 inches and had that long hinged bayonet, while the Special Troops rifle was intermediate in all respects: 21" tube, detachable knife bayonet. Of course, they all had adjustable sights.

These were replaced by the Model 38 series in 7.35mm, using a .300" bullet of 128 grains: an effort to update the old design. Just after the adoption of the 38 series, Italy adopted the semi-auto Armaguerra Model 39, which had been developed and tested in 6.5mm, then started trying to re-engineer it for the new cartridge. Actual production of the Armaguerra at the Cremona plant is unknown, but it certainly was no more than 100 before the plant was turned over to parts production for other rifles.

The 38 series had the standard array of sizes: short and medium, both with the 'block' non-adjustable sights. Not a huge number had been made when Italy became involved in the Second World War so, to ease ammunition-supply problems, the 38 series were converted to 6.5mm and the fine Model 41 developed as a substitute for the old 91, which was 4 inches longer and a pound heavier.

So there are a whole heap of Carcanos to be collected: 3 Carbines, 3 Special Troops rifles, a Long rifle, a Medium rifle and, of course, the midget: the Balilla, a miniature Carbine, bayonet and all, made for the Fascist youth corps.

They are entirely a valid field of collecting and they are one which is so neglected. And if you like a reasonably-lightweight, low-recoiling rifle which is far more accurate than its outward appearance would indicate, then this is where you look for a real deal, likely the single BEST deal in Milsurps today.

One point always to remember: the Italians did not have a lot of money to waste, so they spent what they had on a decent design and on excellent barrels.

And a point of interest: all Carcanos, with the single exception of the Model 41, used Gain-Twist rifling; the rifling started with a slow pitch and increased in rate toward the muzzle. This was popular among the very best Match rifles of the late Black-powder period, but the lowly Carcano was to be the ONLY military rifle to continue it into the smokeless-powder era. It works, too.

BTW, the rifle used on JFK (who was not one of my favourite people) was a TS-38 in 6.5mm.

Carcanos are FUN! Time to get one... or two... or three...

I have another carcano related question. Does anyone have a pic of a Carcano sniper rifle that they can post? I don't recall seeing one.

Weaver used to make a side mount for one. The actions are smooth, tough and rigid. As mentioned above, with the right ammunition, very accurate. The Terni built M91 I have will hold its own against the Breda M1 Garand and that shoots into 1 1/2inches.

It's to bad the Italian military was so rife with poor leadership. The troops and rifles were fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhunter

I have another carcano related question. Does anyone have a pic of a Carcano sniper rifle that they can post? I don't recall seeing one.

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I've an "Oswald special" built on a rifle pretty close in S/N to the infamous weapon, and using the same scope and bracket (purchased from the folks that built them back in the '60s!- All gone now, I think).
It shoots very well. A friend (the one who collected the parts and built it) killed a deer with it. It handles well and contrary to popular opinion, cycles and comes back on target VERY quickly. It changed his mind about the rifle's capabilities.

There's an old photo (not a close-up) in the ammo forum. OR just click on either the carcano or carcano ammunition tags below- they ought to get you there- I think the thread's titled "More Carcano Fun Coming" or something close. If i get time, I'll try some new pics, but it may be a week or three!

I have seen photos of the double set triggers for the rifle - quite interesting for a military rifle.
Very rare are the clips for the late 7.92x57mm conversion

You're right about the clips for the 7.92 calibre rifles. I don't believe they were conversions though. I believe, Steyr purposely built those rifles. Not really sure why though. Lots of speculation on that subject though.

If you're interested, I modified a 7.92x57 mannlicher schoenauer clip to fit. It's a bit sloppy but works well. The rifles don't respond well to single feeding.

Many Carcanos were sporterised by Internation Firearms in Canada. One of the things they did, to add value. was modify the trigger/mag housing to a double set trigger configuration. They misled many into believing the rifle was chambered in the 6.5x54MS, by only stamping 5.5mm on the barrels. I never heard of any accidents but it certainly POed a lot of people.

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Originally Posted by bearhunter

Many Carcanos were sporterised by Internation Firearms in Canada. One of the things they did, to add value. was modify the trigger/mag housing to a double set trigger configuration. They misled many into believing the rifle was chambered in the 6.5x54MS, by only stamping 5.5mm on the barrels. I never heard of any accidents but it certainly POed a lot of people.

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Apparently Cooey DID convert some to a 0.264" bored 6.5mm MS caliber, which, dangerously enough, will chamber some 6.5 Carcano rounds.

Click on link below, if you are interested:

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=15614

I remember that discussion. I had forgotten they were converted for Cooey (Canadian Winchester subsidiary). I mentioned International Firearms had done the conversions, because they offered them for sale. With either trigger group. Those were good days, for firearms owners in Canada. We could buy new Colt AR15s and many other milsurps from the Sidney I. Robinson catalogue, just by sending a check or money order. The only restricteds we worried about were full autos and hand guns.
The double trigger set up on those conversions was sloppy. The adjustments were coarse, the finish on the interacting parts wasn't polished and I suspect very soft.

You must have seen these white boxes of 6,5 Carcano they were around alot - we use to call them the "Oswald" ammo boxes. Produced by Winchester for special operations, then became surplus.

I know that I have seen photos of the long 1891 rifle called the sharpshooter model with military double set triggers ?Attachment 13907

Found a photo of a M1891/41 target rifle s/n E29xx built for military target shooting, barrel is FAT '41.

Have photos in my email if anyone is interested ?

"Quick" photo or two regarding previous query. Of course, technically it's NOT a "real" sniper rifle. "Oswald Special" duplicate :

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff038-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff034-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff033-1.jpg

I have a 7.35 carbine model that was given to me years ago by an aquaintence when she found out I enjoy rifles and collecting. She told me they found it in the wall of an apartment she owned that was getting remodeled! I have ammo and clips with it. The bore is good and the blueing is not bad either. The only weird thing was the magazine/trigger housing had a strange green paint applied to it? I may have goofed, but I just steel wooled down to bare metal.

I have never shot this rifle mainly because when I chamber a round, the bolt closes very tightly, and I worry about head space issues. With the talk of how strong these rifles are, I am a little more inclined to go shoot it. Never bothered taking it to a gunsmith, bcause A: had no money in the rifle, and B: didn't seem worth the trouble as I have never had a strong desire to shoot the thing.

Am I missing some fun? :dunno:Attachment 14033Attachment 14030Attachment 14034Attachment 14031Attachment 14032Attachment 14029

Here once again the Carcano is a beast all of its own.

It is common to discover other rifles with great amounts of headspace, but NOT Carcanos. The italians seem to have been most conservative in the fitting of bolts to these critters and, when they erred, they always erred on the side of safety.

The result is that it is not unusual at all to encounter a Carcano which is more than a tad tight. It might be tight to close, but it will extract and eject properly once the round has been fired. At least, mine does.

I would have no qualms about firing the 7.35, just bearing in mind the fact that ammo just is NOT available any longer. Making the stuff, though, is no problem. You can open out 6.5 Carcano brass with a minimum of fuss and bother. Hornady used to list the correct 128-grain .300" bullet for this rifle and it is entirely likely that they still have the tooling. Heck, they might even still have bullets around! If you can't find the right bullet, it should be possible to make up a die to reduce .308 bullets to .300. Cast bullets would be easier to do, but it should be possible to reduce jacketed ones also.

The 7.35 never did get the recognition it deserved. In many ways, it was much closer to the ideal of an assault rifle round than the .308W (7.62NATO) which replaced it a few years down the road. Much lower pressures, too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smellie

The 7.35 never did get the recognition it deserved. In many ways, it was much closer to the ideal of an assault rifle round than the .308W (7.62NATO) which replaced it a few years down the road. Much lower pressures, too.

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Aside from the cartridge's OAL, I must heartily agree! Had the rifle been as forward looking as the round, it might have gotten more attention.

There's even a somewhat rambling thread dedicated to the 7.35 round, but progress has been slow:

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=15006

I have owned my 91/28 TS carbine for over 40 years. They are a very good shooting carbine once you figure them out. First the lands in the barrel measure out to .268 instead of the normal .264. Some of the imported rifles were shortened by the importer cutting off the last part of the gain twist. and the Italian sight picture was really way off. They sighted the top of the front sight with the bottom of the V-notch. And the battle sight was set at 300 yds for the early models, later changed to 200. If you use the Horneday ammo or their .268 round nose bullet and have carbine or long rifle without the cut barrel and build up the front sight , 2 inch groups are no problem.

Tdub

Hi guys I recently acquired the M38 Breshia. She is really nice and fires well. But in that respect she is like the Mosin If the chamber isn't squeeky clean, you'll wind up doing a lot of bolt slapping. There was no date on her so I wound up looking up some of her parts, along with info I obtained from the man I got her from. New philly sports in Ohio. He knows a lot about Carcanos There isn't a great deal written about them. This site has some info, along with Collect and shoot 2006. Strangely you would think that since Dallas 63 folks would have tried to find out more about the rifle that killed JFK. No I don't believe that my Carcano was that particular type of Cancano Mine is the M38 carbine. That rifle as I understand it was a long rifle. I have the 8mm conversion, and as I understand there were only 16,000 of these made, and she might be something of a rare bird

Paulm, if you can read German, get
"Il Novantuno Mannlicher-Carcano"
by Wolfgang Riepe
ISBN 3-932077-30-X
ISBN 978-3-932077-30-2
(I don't know why it has 2 numbers)
Publishers: VS-BOOKS, Herne
VS-Books - Waffentechnik, Militrgeschichte, Reenactment

Even if you are not fluent in German, the info in this book (390 pages) beats everything I have found on the internet put together - including an Italian book!

Patrick

Paulm, there is a thread here (this thread, in fact; see page 2) regarding (in part) a faithful copy of the Oswald Carcano. It is based on a 6.5mm TS-38. TS-38 originally was the simple-sighted 7.35mm version of the older TS 6.5mm short rifles, but then the war got going so they decided very wisely to stay with the 6.5mm and so manufactured the TS-38 as a 6.5 also. Lots of the 7.35mm TSs went to the Finns. The 7.92mm TS-38s were made right near the end of the war, when the factory was under German occupation.

Rifles made for Italian military use were dated, often just with the last 3 digits of the date. Nice thread on here about a 1917 TS; it is dated simply "917". Rifles made in the Fascist period are actually dated in TWO systems at the same time: Christian year (1940) and year of the Refounded Roman Empire (XVIII), which I think is just incredibly NEAT, being an historian of sorts. Would have been even more fun if they had dated them in the Roman calendar (this is 2764 AUC, I think) but that likely was too much for some folks.

Most important point is to have fun with the critters. You have a Very Nice Toy, BTW.
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I want to thank SMELLIE for a lot of infor mation. I do have a question about loding an 1891 for accuracy. I have not been able to load it with any luck as far as accuracy. It is an early one with the "gain twist" (it looks weird if you look closely) and regardless of what load I have tried I would be better off throwing it at a target. I have kept the loads fairly light out of consideration of it's age.

jmoore, my Carcanos are also tight to close. There is little if any expansion visible on the extracted cases. I've seen more than a couple of the 7.35 calibre models with "green" paint on the trigger/enbloc houseings. I always surmised that was done as a war time expedient to quickly indentify the ammunition it required.
I was told by an old Italian soldier, that they had several of them where he was stationed in Africa. He also stated that they had little if any ammunition for them. They were mainly kept in racks and ignored. Maybe, that why they are usually in such good shape when they are found.