Odd IBM M1 Carbine

I have a Carbine that my father traded for about 45/50 years ago. It has an IBM knurled barrel with no bayonet lug, and has a black/rosy tinted finish instead of a parker finish and matching numbers.

I took it to a couple of long-time gunsmiths for their evaluation about thirty years ago and one said it was probably an early build and the other said the US exported some to Sweden with that bluing because of the Swedish Government specs.

I don't remember seeing any European style markings that would indicate that, but it has been a long time since I broke it down and inspected it.

Even though he gave it to me almost 35 years ago, I keep it at my father's home because he still likes to take it outside on his farm occasionally and shoot it. He is 90 and carried a similar weapon in the Pacific and now he wants me to bring it back to my home which has made me start to want to research it's history.

Any links or even guesses are welcome.

Thanks

crowtalks, welcome to the forum. Pictures are what we need to answere your questions. Can you post some? That would be a great help. Thanks.....Frank

Thanks.

Sure I'll post some as soon as I get the gun back to my home in a day or two

here's some pics...

Guns pictures by crowtalks - Photobucket

Is the number on the peep sight suppose to match the receiver, bolt and slide numbers?

If it is, then all numbers don't match

I just broke it down for the 1st time in over twenty years, and written on the left side of the receiver just below the wood line with one of those electric pencils like jewelers use is: Century Arm Inc,
St Albans, VT and the the trigger assembly has N16 stamped on it.

This tell me it is most likely a post 1967 import. I asked my Dad when he traded for it and he didn't remember. I remember shooting it before I started High School, so it was 1971 or before. It didn't have the oiler or strap we he got it, we added those.

it's a National Postal Meter carbine with an I.B.M. barrel. the # on the rear sight is the drawing/part # hope this helps.

Is the black/rose finish and rough barrel with no bayonet lug common?

The stock cutout has DD H stamped on it.

Your National Postal Meter was made about April 1944 towards the end of production. It did go through a rebuild at some point and with the plum colored trigger housing I would guess it was on an early Bavarian returned carbine imported by Century Arms. The black finish on the barrel is quite normal for rebuilt carbines. The rough finish on the barrel are from the lathe used to turn the barrel down to it's finished diameter.

It sounds like you have a post war rebuild NPM carbine. IBM supplied barrels but I don't have my stats with me but I would say it is just as I said, a post war rebuild.

The barrel band is of slight concern though. The finish op it looks like a "Universal" brand band???

Bruce, you beat me! :madsmile:

The black finish was done in Europe and they over-cooked the trigger housing. It's what we call 'plum' color. No rebuilt carbines were given that kind of finish. That's a typical Bavarian blue job. It actually looks like a very nice example. You can tell by the sharp lathe lines on the barrel and nice edges elsewhere that it's had an easy life.

Bruce and Inland44 have it right in my view. Have a look on top of the receiver ring, just behind the handguard. I'll see if I can get Jim to chime in, he'll know.

Hi Guys

This is one of the carbines imported by Century Arms from West Germany in the 1970's. I haven't been able to pin down the date yet but I do know the hand engraved importer marking was because they had not received their stamp yet. According to someone at Century Arms I spoke to. Import marks were not done until they were mandated, and that happened with the October 1968 Gun Control Act.

These carbines were sold to law enforcement agencies or officers/deputies only, usually by Interarms. Federal law prohibited the sale to citizens at that time. Officers retired, agencies sold them, and some of us have them today, myself included.

Look real close at the top of the receiver to the left of the bolt. The Bavaria police removed their markings on many in this batch imported by Century Arms. I don't think Century got them from Bavaria, I suspect they bought them from a German exporter, who bought them from Niedersachsen. Who bought them from Bavaria 1952-1955.

The V notch rear sight on the receiver ring was silver soldered there by the Bavarians. They removed the rear FI sight and slotted the rear sight platform from side to side to supposedly cut down on the glare. Some of the rear sight dovetails were left alone, some were filled in.

If you go to BavarianM1Carbines.com and click on the Armory, look for the Bavarians with the markings removed and you'll see a number of them have this rear sight arrangement.

Many people don't like them and knock that German sight off. PLEASE DO NOT do this. If you want a carbine in it's GI configuration there are plenty around. These V notch rear sights are part of the history of the carbine and are getting harder to find because of the numbers stripped for parts before some of us came along and started collecting them for their history. The majority of carbine collectors aren't interested, but that's been changing with some folks.

I'm building a display of the U.S. M1 Carbines used by West Germany and Austria during and after the American Occupation of those countries and I've been looking for one of these that hasn't been altered in any way.

Their history can be viewed on the above website under Germany. The V notch sighted ones were used early on (circa 1946/47) by the Bavaria Rural Police and Bavaria Border Police. Sometimes some of the markings still remain if you look close at the receiver to the left of the bolt.

Feel free to contact me directly at: Jim at BavarianM1Carbines.com. I can help you determine what the Germans did, and what was done by owners after Germany. If you are interested.

If you want a GI carbine without the Bavaria markings and import mark instead of this one, there are several of us who would be interested in either buying this one from you or trading you for it. Keep in mind they are not high end collectibles. But you'd probably get more from one of us than anyone else, if you wanted a different one. If not, congrats and enjoy the website. A work in progress.

I don't monitor the forum only because of a lack of free time. Mikey gave me a heads up.

Jim
BavarianM1Carbines.com
M1CarbinesInc.com

P.S. Display will be at the Dallas Arms Collector's Show August 21st & 22nd at Market Hall near downtown Dallas.

Thanks for all the good info. A post war rebuild makes a lot of sense and explains the finish and extra fine condition. Of course, I wanted it to be some rare rifle handled by the Prince of Mashawan or something but when I inspected it closely under a strong light (I had never noticed the Century Arms logo buzzed into the receiver) I suspected you guys would say it was a rebuild.

In a couple of days, your super information has settled a couple of curiosities that has been with me for about forty years.

Hell, I answered before I read the second page.

Thanks for all your answers and Jim, I'll check the website and get with you for more info. You can rest assured I'm not going to alter it and I'll keep you guys in mind if I ever want to sell it.

Jim

Hello Jim, I have an early IBM M1 Carbine "Bavaria Border Police" with "AO" receiver. Are you interested in pics?

Matt-

Thanks for the offer of pics. Yes, I'm interested.

I have had others offer who I haven't been able to get back with due to the volume of time my carbine projects are taking. I'm currently rebuilding a display on these carbines to NRA dimensions for their 2012 conference in St. Louis. Trying to get it done in time for the DACA show in August in Dallas. DACA will be sponsoring it at the NRA conference.

The pics may not go up on the website but they will help the research I'm doing. I also have a third website I'm working on for the GI carbines and need a good example of the IBM markings showing the AO subcontractor in the same shot. The new website is Carbines.US, the url currently lands folks on the first of 8 pages on the GI carbines, buried on my BavarianM1Carbine website.

I need ten of me.

Pics can be shared here, or e-mailed to me at Jim at Bavarianm1carbines.com

Thanks for the help.....

Jim
BavarianM1Carbines.com
M1CarbinesInc.com
Carbines.US

It's called 'plum' color and occurs when a part is left in the bluing chemical bath too long. It is not a USGI finish. It may be a rebuild but the blued finish was not part of that process. I agree with Bruce that it would seem to be a Bavarian, but not about the barrel being a US rebuild color. US rebuilds were Parkerized which can be very dark gray (but mostly are medium gray), but this whole gun has been blued. Any blued gun is subject to having some plum color, if only on a part. One of my Colt Government Models has a plum safety, but only under certain light. It's still a sharp-looking carbine. I also think the barrel band has been changed out at some point, maybe when the refinish was done. It probably had a Type III band (bayonet lug) after the US rebuild.

In my opinion this carbine is, without any doubt whatsoever, one of the U.S. Carbines provided to Bavaria by the U.S. Office of Military Government (OMGUS). The carbines were provided to Bavaria between 1946 and 1949.

In 1945 FN in Belgium was contracted by U.S. Army Ordnance to inspect and rebuild tens of thousands of U.S. weapons, U.S. Carbines included. Pursuant Ordnance directives, FN did not place any markings on the weapons they refurbished. Markings were limited to facilities in the U.S. At the time FN did the work they were being overseen by U.S. Army Ordnance personnel. Howa in Japan was another inspect and rebuild facility being run by U.S. Army Ordnance.

The finish on this carbine and it's trigger housing are typical of many of the U.S. Carbines used by the Germans and/or Austrians. I do not know if these were refinished by FN, the Germans, and/or the Austrians. The copper colored trigger housings are common but not the majority. The finish tends to be more of a black oxide than bluing.

Nonetheless, it IS an original GI carbine that served U.S. Forces in the European Theater of War during WWII followed by service with the police in Bavaria post WWII. The rear sight alteration appears to have been limited to the Bavaria Border Police and Bavaria Rural Police.

I suspect, but cannot prove, that the carbines imported by Century Arms from Germany in the mid 1970's were purchased from the German State of Niedersachsen, who purchased 2700 U.S. Carbines from Bavaria 1952-1955. After the fiasco at the Olympics in Munich in 1972, Hessen and Niedersachsen began selling off their U.S. Carbines.

I have an Inland with the same finish and same rear sight alteration. Imported by Century Arms. Bavaria removed the police markings from many they sold to Niedersachsen but I suspect someone on the operational level decided the time spent removing the markings was a waste as many of the carbines retained their Bavaria markings. Those with the altered rear sight consistently have the Bavaria markings removed. Sometimes only partially.

Jim
BavarianM1Carbines.com
M1CarbinesInc.com
Carbines.US