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I'm looking for a type 99 in good condition with intact mum. I've located one that appears to be all original with matching numbers with a very good bore, better than average stock and has the web strap and bayonet in scabbard. Bayonet number does not match rifle.
I read elsewhere that a rifle in this condition would be in the $300-$400 range without the sling and bayonet. What would be a safe price to offer for this setup?
Japanese type 30 Bayonet serial numbers were not matched to serial numbers of Japanese rifles.
What do you mean by "safe price to offer"? It's up to the seller to set a price. Sounds like a good find. Don't be shy, ask him "how much do you want for it?", then take it from there.
I should have phrased it better I guess. The rifle is coming up in an auction, an auction that typically sees prices go sky high. Non matching number Mosin Nagant refurb 91/30's for $275 etc.
If this goes the way they did, I won't be coming home with it. If I have a fair idea of a safe value, I"m willing to go that high, even if it's on the steep side of my budget. I don't expect to see one in the described condition for a while.
Note I haven't actually seen it so the sellers description may not meet the actual condition of the rifle.
It only really matters how much you pay if you intend on reselling it for a profit. Pay as much as you think its worth to YOU. Collecting isn't a particularly logical endevour....
It matters how much I pay if I have to recover the funds at some point in the future. I have a good steady income now but who knows what the future will bring, especially in this economy.
I'm not looking to resell this for profit, if I were, I wouldn't be going to an auction to do so. In my area, you rarely get bargains at auctions, you often get shafted if you are not careful because there are a lot of people with disposable income around here. I'm not one of them.
I also don't follow gun values much because I'm not in the business of buying and selling, thus my question.
Your first post showed that you seemed to have a grasp on rifle values in your "buying sphere". Prices vary markedly at the local level. The other drama is that people buy for different reasons- you may just want a representative example, whilst someone else looking at the very same rifle may be after that particular series, or sling or who knows what? He may very well be prepared to pay rather more just for a single feature of that rifle.
I'm working 12 days and weekends to afford this hobby, so I'm not exactly a rich guy, just obsessed! I've also taken a beating on things before, it just comes w/ the territory. That's why I say to just put a price in your head that you can be happy with, and don't run over it (much)- don't worry about the other guys.--I miss rather more than I get, but that's fine - the hunt itself is part of the fun!
I'm just after a representative example. While I would love to seriously collect rifles, I don't have the cash to do so. I'm just trying to get one rifle from each of the major powers in WWII for now I have the British and German and Russian and while I don't have a Garand which I suppose I should, I have a bolt action US rifle that was used in WWII so I'm satisfied for now.
I'm having a hard time buying a Carcano, I just don't like them so will probably look for an older WWI rifle from Italy.
I also try to get a bayonet for each rifle so that makes this more appealing in that I wouldn't have to track one down elsewhere.
I tend to go overboard at auctions, spur of the moment, excitement, etc but I've been very good lately and haven't bought anything that went beyond my preset figure ahead of time. I haven't bought any rifles at auction because of that and this particular auctions history of getting very high prices, but have been able to find several at gun shops for less than what I was willing to pay so on that count I'm very happy.
I just don't know anything about the Japanese rifles. They have sold but not with an intact Mum. Those without sold at what I would consider a reasonable price but I want one with the mum.
I'm a fairly cautious type as I've sought advice on several recent purchases here. I don't like going in blind.
Sounds like you'll be fine. Don't pay scads extra for the mum, nor the sling at this point. "Real" mum rifles (actual battlefield bringbacks) tend to be in worse condition for some odd reason, so that tends to balance out the lack of the mark on "pretty" rifles.
Slings? A whole collection can be made just about those! For you, esp. if you intend on some range time, it's not going to add a whole ton of value- its just a very fragile bit that probably needs more attention and ongoing maintenance than the rest of the rifle. (I've seen a bit of rope in a really late rifle add $300+ to its selling price - and it went before it's cheaper ropeless brother sitting on the shelf next to it! That's a little mad to me, even though the rope looked "correct".)
The bayonet, however, if its roughly the correct vintage as the rifle, can add $75-150 pretty easily. Do some study there before paying the premium, though!
I got to handle the rifle today. It is not in near as good of shape as the auction house described in my humble opinion.
It does have all matching numbers that I can see anyway. Did not take the bolt assembly apart but number was stamped on about a third of the metal parts and all matched.
It is a Type 99, series 4, 84*** serial number Nagoya with the mum intact. Has the anti-aircraft wings on the sight but no bipod. Stock is fairly clean but the metal has some pitting on the barrel ends and the finish is not that great anywhere else. Bore is shiny, safety functions smoothly, appears operable. butt plate is loose because the screw has worked its way through it and is no longer holding it. Not sure why, did not appear to be rusted away at all, perhaps poor fit.
The sling is green webbing, I have no idea if it original to the rifle or not but looks like it was made for it. It also appears to be in decent shape, but I didn't have a lot of time to look it over.
The bayonet is a Type 30 straight quillon and squared pommel Toyoda Jidoshoki Seisakusho (Toyoda Automatic Loom Works) that looks like it was never used. It has what appears to be a wood scabbard and a woven thatch frog.
Wow, did some looking around on the various sites and this rifle isn't in very good shape at all. I'm disappointed. The bayonet is looking pretty interesting though. Appears to be a last ditch type and the frog it has I've found no where.
The bore is so nice because it's chrome. I didn't know that going in. Should be a nice shooter but the finish is mostly gone when compared with others. Maybe it will go low.
Most "real" capture rifles aren't in the best of shape. Probably because it was actually being used in the field, and then "dropped" for a few weeks or months, w/o shelter, before the soldiers began to rotate off from whatever island they were upon.
It did not go low enough for my interest, $425. Two others sold before it, both in better condition but with the mums ground off. The first, $175, the second $145. This sort of thing never seems to fail with me at this auction. What I'm interested in goes high, what I'm not goes low.
Granted this had a bayonet and probably a very rare frog/scabbard combo to go with it. The sling after looking at it again this morning was most likely off a US Garand. The rifle itself had been freshly scrubbed with steel wool as fibers were all over it. The rust on the barrel was heavier than I first thought and parts of the receiver were heavily rusted as well. The butt plate had the wrong screw in it, that's why it was loose. The stock itself had been refinished. There is no way it would have remained in that condition with the metal being as rough as it was.
I'm disappointed, had it been in the condition it was described, I was prepared to go up to $500 after talking it over with some Japanese re-enactors last weekend at the WWII weekend. In the condition it was in, I was prepared to go $325, $225 for the rifle and $100 for the bayonet.
The nice finish they described was rust brown, meaning rust and even it was only about 30%.
Oh well, there will be other rifles.
Ummm,..... yuck! I think you did the right thing.
I think you were wise to not have bought the rifle. As with all WWII Japanese rifles, condition and originality are everything. So with the poor condition you described and a refinished stock, those are two major strikes.
The bayonet rig sounds interesting but without having knowledge about that, it was wise to back off at the price it went for.
Kim