Question about Jungle Carbine metal bits - in the "white"?

Hi everyone,

Been busy, but never too busy to keep me away from Lee Enfields.

Got a Bubba'ed No5 recently (very sadly, with sanded and varnished wood, and a blot head that severely over-rotates). What struck me is that what I thought were silver-painted metal parts are actually "in the white".

The safety parts; the trigger guard and trigger; mag well, follower and follower spring; middle band and sling swivel; butt plate "frame" and even the metal plate that's in between the buttpad and the buttstock. What gives? Any idea where that comes from? I don't think a previous owner took the time to de-blue all that...

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cture237-1.jpg

louthepou

It goes with the sanded and varnished wood, Bubba at work is my guess.

I'm guessing but the parts could have have been painted with Suncorite and Bubba used a strong paint stripper or Drano and a wire wheel on them.

Retreating, bluing and painting would be good answers to get from Brian Dick or Mr. Laidler.

Good luck and let us see your handy work when you are done.......Hoser :D

Poor man's matte plating job: glass bead then varnish?

I was wondering if the metal parts weren't stripped of their painted finish, somehow. Do they look sanded or just "bare"?

I think it's really in the white. The parts that were not exposed (top of trigger, follower spring) look like new untouched metal. Weird.

They may have been dipped in a carb clean tank, or hot tanked.

That's JUST how they come out of the bead blaster prior to being phosphated and painted. Seen thousands of 'em!

Hi Peter! Thanks everyone for input.

SO, the follow-up question is, of course: What do I do with them. The choices are:

1. Nothing, silly Louis! Oil them and put them back on!
2. Do what should have been done, blue them and it'll look pretty!

Start voting... now :)

Lou

Lou

Blue/paint them according to what was proper for that time period.
(are you restoring or just making a short barreled moose "shooter") :D

Ask the members which home bluing methods work the best, with the understanding you are only using Canadian products or can you order from Brownells and have products shipped across the border.


Lou don't tell Mr. Laidler my spies are sill active ;)


RUST-PROOFING OF SMALL ARMS AND MACHINE GUNS

(Parkerizing - Process 'D')

BASE WORKSHOP REPAIRS

1. Items affected:-

Small arms and machine guns (all types)

2. Stores required:-

V.A.O.S. Cat No. Nomenclature
Section
HI HA 13748 D.I.M.U. sine phosphate make-up solution
HI HA 13749 D.R. replenishment
HI HA 13750 Chemical, Parker finish, P4l, matt black, spirit stain
HI HA 13742 Chemical, Parker finish, p8, semi-matt, stove spraying
HI HA 13744 Thinners, PB, semi-matt, black
HI HA 13747 Oil, SP 55
Hl HA 12444 Compound, degreasing, alkaline, Type 'C'
HI HA 13703 Solution, rust-removing
HI HA 13740 Sets, testing
HI HA 13745 Solution, testing, No.1
HI HQ 13746 Solution, indicator, No.1

INTRODUCTION

3. In the process described the surfaces of iron and steel are converted insoluble phosphate by chemicals, which causes a very slight but negligible build-up. In practice the order of dimensional increase is approximately 0.0002 in. per surface treated. The process is carried out by immersing the items to be treated in a heated chemical solution which forms a zinc phosphate coating, and is carried out in four stages - cleaning, processing, rinsing and impregnating. The solution is made up by the addition of D.I.M.U. (initial make up) liquid to hot water and replenished as necessary by the addition of D.R. (replenishment) liquid to maintain the correct operating strength. It is necessary at regular intervals, best determined by experience based on flow of work, to test and maintain the strength of the chemical solution and a testing set is provided for this purpose.

EQUIPMENT

4. When possible, the processing equipment should be placed on a waterproof floor supplied with drainage, and a good ventilation is desirable to eliminate steam. The plant and main items of equipment for this process consist of the following:-

(a) ( i ) Discolouration treatment tank (unheated)
(ii) Processing tank with heating coils
(iii) Rinse tank with heating coils
(iv) Spirit stain tank (unheated)
(v) Stoving ovens.
(vi) Air compressor
(vii) Paint spraying booth with exhaust fan, spray guns and paint agitator.
(viii) Oil tanks
(ix) Boiler

(b) Other items of ancillary equipment required are:

(i) Rotary hand pump
(ii) Weighing scales
(iii) Steel top tables
(iv) Baskets with not less than l/4 in. mesh
(v) Master thermometer
(vi) Hand brushes (bristle)
(vii) Clock (timepiece)
(viii) Protective clothing - overalls for spray painters, clogs asbestos gloves, goggles and masks.

INSTRUCTIONS

Cleaning

5. Cleaning preparatory to the chemical processing is very important. All loose foreign matter, paint, dirt, oil, grease, swarf etc. must be removed. Degreasing can be effected by any of the usual methods such as alkali wash, solvent wipe or trichlorethylene. If alkali degreasing is employed care must be taken to ensure that all alkali is removed by thorough washing in clean water before chemical processing, as alkali contaminates the solution and upsets the balance of the process. It is considered that caustic soda is one of the contributory factors to 'sparkle', and along immersion in a strong alkaline solution will increase this. Compound, degreasing, alkaline, type 'C' is solution which contains no caustic soda and is therefore recommended. Items which have previously been parkerised, spray painted and stoved can be identified after removal from the degreasing solution by a dull black film of powder on the surface. This can be removed without difficulty by using a bristle hand brush. After degreasing and rinsing the items should be passed through a tank containing rust removing solution to remove any rust or brownish discolouration which may occur after degreasing. Items must then be thoroughly rinsed in clean boiling water for approximately 10 minutes. To keep the rinsing water free from contamination a constant flow of water must be maintained.
Chemical processing

6. The temperature of the solution should be kept between 180 deg. and 185 deg. F and at an operating strength of between 18 and 20 points, which is obtained by adding 85 lb. of D.I.M.U. chemical per 100 gallons of water. The most efficient operating strength is 20 points. This strength should be maintained by addition of D.R. chemical as the solution becomes depleted or weakened through processing of work. Replenishments must be made to the following formula:-


For every 100 Imperial gallons of solution add 2 lb. 2 oz of D.R.
chemical for each point below 20. Occasional replenishments of D.I.M.U. chemical are required to compensate for mechanical losses of the solution, as when the tank is cleaned out. Where D.I.M.U. chemical is to be added for this purpose, 41/4 lb. are required for every 100 gallons of solution for each point below 20. (In cases where it is necessary to make up for an excessive quantity of lost solution this method must be used).

7. Processing can be considered complete after approximately 35 minutes immersion. The items to be processed should be suspended in the solution in such a way that surfaces are not in contact with one another. Small components should be suspended in iron wire mesh baskets. The mesh should not be less than l in. Care must be taken to ensure that no articles come in contact with the sludge at the bottom of the tank.

Method of testing processing solution for strength

8. The test set consists of a cabinet containing:-

Burette 1
Glass funnel 1
Rubber tubes and pinch cocks 2
Phials, 10 c.c. 2
Glass beakers 2
Testing solution (H/10 caustic soda solution) (bottle) 1
Indicator solution (Phenol phthalein) (Bottle) 1

9. All testing equipment must be thoroughly cleaned. Place the burette in a stand, insert the small glass funnel and pour in testing solution to a level just above the top graduation mark. Adjust level of Bolution to zero mark. A sample of the processing solution from the processing tank should be removed by means of the 10 c.c. phial with wire attached, allowed to cool for a few minutes and then transferred to a clean glass beaker.

10. Add about five drops of indicator solution to the 10 c.c. of processing solution in the beaker. Hold the beaker containing the sample of the processing solution under the jet at the bottom of the burette and slowly draw off testing solution from the burrette by opening the pinch cock. Shake beaker constantly to mix the two solutions thoroughly. Allow testing solution to run slowly into the beaker until a permanent pink colour is obtained throughout the sample - this is termed the end point. Care must be taken not to add an excess of testing solution. The reading should now be taken from the burette and, if correct, should read 20 points.

Rinsing

11. Rinsing should be carried out immediately after processing. The temperature of the hot water rinse is not critical but should generally be maintained at between 160 deg. and 180 deg. F. In order to keep this rinse free from contamination a constant flow of water should be employed, the flow so regulated in conjunction with the output of work do as to maintain the rinsing water at not more than 0.3 points. This figure of 0.3 points may conveniently be checked by using the method detailed in the foregoing paras. 8, 9 and 10 above.

12. It is advisable, however, to take 6.50 cc sample for test. The result obtained on the 50 cc sample should then be divided by 5 to obtain the correct points for the rinsing water.

Finishing

13. When the processing is completed items may be covered with a very fine powdery deposit which must be removed by using a bristle brush. This will improve the quality of appearance of the final finish.

14. There are two types of finish identified as:-

Type 'A': By spray painting, stoving and a final dip or wipe in a neutral oil. and
Type 'B': By black spirit stain and a final dip in neutral oil.
The type of finish to be given will depend on the uses to which the part wil1 be put. All parts which require a hard wearing black finish wil1be dealt with by Type 'A'. Small parts which are not adaptable to Type ‘A' wi1l be treated with Type 'B' when a black finish is required. Parts having sliding and bearing surfaces (as on a Bren gun body) will need protection by masking when subjected to type 'A' finish.

Type 'A' (Finish No. P8)

15. Before use the chemica1 P8 must be well stirred. It may require thinning to be easily sprayable and should not be thinned more than 10 parts chemical to 1 part F8 thinners, and the liquid must again be thoroughly stirred to ensure full mixing. Items will be sprayed with the liquid by using air pressure of approximately 30 lb/sq.in. After spraying, items should baked for one hour in temperatures between 250 deg.F and. 300 deg.F and after completion of this operation they should be allowed to cool freely.
When at atmospheric temperature the treated items will be immersed in mineral oil SP 55, removed, and. allowed to drain.

Type ‘B’ (Finish No. P4l)

16. P41 stain is used undiluted and in an unheated tank. It is only necessary to immerse the items in the stain, agitate slightly to allow the stain to percolate , remove, and allow to dry. When the stain is dry, dip the items in mineral oil SP55 and allow them to drain. To prevent evaporation it is important that the tank containing P41 finish be provided with a tight-fitting lid, and the lid always be in position when the tank is not in use.

Possible defects in processed work

17. Defects may show on finished parts if proper attention is not paid to the preparatory cleaning and to the maintenance of the. processing solution.
The defects most likely to occur are:-

(a) Sparkle: This phenomenon is occasioned by a deposit of crystalline matter on the surface of the metal being Parkerised. The first items on which this sparkle appears will usually show the treated surface to be uniformly covered with the crystalline matter and will be comparatively smooth to the touch. Apart from the fact that there will be a negligible addition to the dimensions of the processed item, no particular harm will result from the sparkle. In many cases this slight 'building up' is unimportant and not noted.
If, however, measures are not taken at once to correct the condition it becomes aggravated. Succeeding runs will become rougher and examination will show that the treated surfaces are imperfectly covered, the crystals appearing to segregate in little heaps, leaving minute metallic surfaces exposed. Sparkle is usually accompanied by a decided prolongation of the time required to processing, which increases with every time as long as the condition is not remedied.
Sparkled work can be attributed to imperfect cleaning, too strong on alkaline solution or prolonged etching in the derusting solution.

(b) Gas pockets: Some recesses on components may not be properly processed because of the formation of gas pockets during treatment. To prevent this fault it is necessary to locate recessed components in a manner to allow gas to be relieved from the solution.

(c) Contact marks: Items with planished surfaces must have special attention to ensure that these surfaces are not in contact while the processing is being carried out. If contact does occur the surfaces may remain unchanged or only partially converted. The process must then be repeated.

General instructions for operators

18. In ordinary use an accumulation of sediment will gather in the bottom of the processing tank. This should be removed regularly - once a week when the tank is being used steadily (or whenever a deposit has become two or three inches deep). This can be accomplished with a hoe, or the rinse tank may be emptied and used as a container for the solution which can be transferred by using a hand pump. After thorough cleaning the solution will be pumped back into the processing tank. The coating which forms on the heating coils in the processing tank retards heating and should be removed by chipping and scraping when necessary. Temperatures for processing are not critical but should be kept reasonably close to the figures quoted. The solution should never boil.

19. If oil accumulates in the processing tank it should be removed before turning on heat, by either skinning or blotting off with paper.

20. Baskets used in the processing tank should not be of a fine mesh as this type quickly choke and prevent drainage. The mesh should be not less than a ¼ in. Baskets used for staining or oiling must not be used for processing.

21. Items must be thoroughly dried before spraying, staining and/or oiling.
Always ensure that the metal grating in the bottom of the processing tank is in position to prevent components from resting in the sediment.

22. Care must be taken when tanks are located in or near a department used for metal plating to keep all strong acids, caustic alkali, cyanide etc., away from the processing tank. These chemicals, if allowed to contaminate the solution, would have a highly injurious effect.

23. Items previously subjected to the 'browning' process may be immersed in the processing solution without removing the old browning. In the case of barrels o f small arms and machine guns it will be necessary to plug the bores with wooden bungs as a protection against the action of the solution.

LABOUR AND MATERIALS

Labour

24. This process can be carried out by unskilled labour after a short period of training. The actual labour required will of course, depend on the flow of work. The following should, however, be adequate to maintain a reasonable output with a plant of average size. e.g., with a processing tank or approximately 200 gallons capacity:-

Stokers - 1
Spray painters - 2
Labourers - 6

Materials

Chemicals and finishes used are detailed below. The quantities noted against each are estimated amounts required when starting up a plant for the first time and to keep it going, with an average flow of work, for approximately one month:-

'D' Process D.I.M.U. (Initial Make-up)

Solution 250 lb.
(Supplied in 100 lb. carboys and 250 or 500 lb barrels)

D.R. (Replenishments)
Solution 500 lb.
(Supplied in 500 lb barrels)


FINISHES

No. P9 50 lb.
No. P8 thinners 5 gal.
No. P4l 30 gal.
No. SP 55 100 gal.

END

That's the one Ed! But to save yourself a lot of trouble and expense Lou, send them to BDL and they'll come back as per UK MoD spec, new

Hmm, that brings up an ethical issue. These parts go on a already-butchered No5; wood sanded, non matching bolt... Which means even if I go 100% authentic with the metal refurb, that still will remain a Bubba'ed rifle. So as much as I appreciate BDL's excellent work and top notch services, that wouldn't be money well spent - unless the parts would be kept for another refurb down the line...

Were all Jungles with parkerized metal bits or were some blued? Because if the latter is true, I would probably opt for that option first...

The parts were initially blued in initial production but believe me, blueing and the tropics are not kindly bed fellows and to be be honest, didn't last ten minutes in the jungle environment. So ours were all phosphated, painted and heavily greased.

If the rifle is bubbad, then just replace the butchered woodwork and revert the metalwork back to new