MkII Inglis Bren Barrel Handles

Hi,

First question from the new boy.;) (drum roll...)

When was the Mk2 barrel handle introduced for the MkII Bren and was it made by both Inglis and Monotype, or just Monotype?

I ask as my 1943 Inglis MkII came with a Mk2 barrel handle on its non-matching 1944 barrel. I originally assumed this was factory spec working on the principle that early-ish MkII's would have had a Mk1 handle before production was later switched to the Mk2 handle.

However, I have since been advised that only Monotype fitted the Mk2 handle - is this correct? Just to add further confusion, I've seen pictures of fresh MkII Brens taken in both the Inglis and Monotype factories and they all have Mk1 handles. Confused...:dunno:

Grateful for any clarification.

Thanks,

Mark

It was introduced at the same time as the Mk2 Bren, as a resuklt of the Pilkington committee for the simplfication of small-arms. That's the EASY bit. But because a Mark type of component is designated as 'Mark 2', it doesn't follow that it will be used on a Mk2 GUN (although it does mean it in some cases, such as the Mk2 pistol grip for example - which can only be used on a Mk2 butt slide! Same for backsight assemblies too of course...). During production, you simply used whatever was available at the time of assembly. And if there were still thousands of Mk1 carrying handles backing up in the system, then they got used until Tibbenhams geared up to make the Mk2, cheaper and slightly lighter version. The Mk2 type lasted longer too!

BSA made the Mk1 Bren woodwork for Enfields Mk1 guns and continued producing them until Mk1A production ceased in late 1944, when the Mk3 came on stream at Enfield. Both Mk1 and 2 carrying handles were readily available from Ordnance up to the day the last .303" and L4 Brens were finally declared Obsolete in 2002

It'd be nice to report that they were fitted after the lunch break on the xxth of xxxx 1943 but life isn't that simple. In service, Brens were fitted with whatever was available off the shelf. The only thing that mattered was the Mk of the gun

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

It'd be nice to report that they were fitted after the lunch break on the xxth of xxxx 1943 but life isn't that simple. In service, Brens were fitted with whatever was available off the shelf. The only thing that mattered was the Mk of the gun

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I take your point, but I'm still keen to pin down whether Inglis manufactured and / or fitted Mk2 grips to their MkII Brens. I would expect a more 'use whatever happened to be available' approach with parts factory fitted to the Monotype Brens due to the extensive use of subcontractors. (Daimler, etc) However, AFAIK Inglis production was mostly 'in house'. (For example, I have an Inglis marked Mk1 barrel grip plate)

Another thought that occurs is that simplification was presumably slightly less of a priority to Inglis compared to Monotype as Inglis didn't adopt the British type Mk2 bipod or the Mk2 barrel without a receiver locating lug.

I happily admit this is trainspotter stuff. The people who used them had vastly better things to worry about.;)

Cheers,

Mark

PS. Or to look at it in another way; has anyone reading ever seen an Inglis marked Mk2 grip or grip plate?

The answer MUST be this. Does anyone have a Canadian parts list that includes the Mk2 carrying handle or refence to the Mk2 carrying handle part number

I have to say that in service, the Mk1 carrying handle was a bit of a pigs ear becase the large diameter front ends were forever getting seven bells (that's another particularly REME technical phrase indicating that something is 'vulnerable to being knocked about a bit....') kicked out of it by the bipod feet and bodyside. When times were hard and spares short, you had to patch them. If they were very oily, then the old animal bone glue didn't stand a chance.

The Indians had the right idea by simply turning OFF the large diameter to make it the smaller Mk2 diameter, use a Mk2 plate and there you had another plenty of years of life left in them! Someone must have a photo of a such modified handle.................

Where were we........... Oh yes. Anyone got a Canadian Ord parts list handy?

Untill recently I believed that Monotype used the Mk2 only, and Inglis the Mk1 only. However KG provided some factory photos of monotype guns with Mk1 handles. I've still to see evidence of Inglis using Mk2 handles but I'm quite sure they stuck with the mk1 type (Which would explain why there were plenty of NOS mk1 handles around a few years back).


Heres a link to Peters guide to repairing handles, there is a photo or two that shows the indian Mk1 to Mk2 handle conversion.

BREN Mk1 Carrying Handles (by Peter Laidler) - Military Surplus Collectors Forums

As an aside on this, I have a spare Mk2 grip and it is marked 'B' in the wood under the grip plate. BSA?

Cheers,
Mark

I have a couple of near new condition Mk.II barrels ,and both are fitted with Mk.1 handles of Canadian manufacture.

I meant to say near new Inglis manufactured barrels.

What year are they Brian?

Next question........... Does anyone have a Canadian parts list that identifies a Canadian Mk2 parallel type carrying handle?

Update: The mighty KevG has supplied me with a mint Inglis Mk1 grip and grip plate and I have fitted them to my Inglis MkII. I've also added a mint Canadian sling, a Canadian 2nd pattern Bren sling hook and also obtained a mint Canadian barrel holdall.

(Oh, and I swapped the cocking handle slide covers between my Enfield and Inglis Brens as the Enfield had an Inglis cover and the Inglis had a British Corfield & Buckle cover)

I would upload a picture, but I assume I don't have the right privileges as nothing happens when I try.

Cheers,

Mark

Peter, Jeez, I just looked and I've actually got six Inglis Mk.II barrels. Three are dated 1943 and three dated 1944. This includes the one fitted to my 1945 15Txxxx Inglis Mk.II gun. All have Canadian walnut Mk.1 carry handles fitted except one 1943 dated barrel that has a British Mk.II carry handle made at Enfield. Brian

Just in case anyone needs one or more, I have a box of new Bren carrying handle wood that I picked up years ago in Australia DIRT CHEAP

Hello again John. That's a fine offer, but we're OK at the Infantry School. I remember using them as file handles!

On the same subject, I seem to remember that in Australia we only ever used to see the female Mk1 shaped carrying handles too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

On the same subject, I seem to remember that in Australia we only ever used to see the female Mk1 shaped carrying handles too.

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It appears the Australians also made Mk2 handles:

Australian Issue Bren Carrying Handle Mk2 on eBay (end time 24-Jun-10 06:02:40 BST)

Would these have been made for L4's?

Cheers,

Mark

PS. On the subject of the Infantry School, a friend and I have booked a visit to the small arms collection next Wednesday morning. Thoroughly looking forward to it.:)

There was a complete case of 18 Australian Mk.II barrels for sale at the Knob Creek show in April. They were all still packed in grease in brand spanking knew conditon. It would make the perfect display for a rich guy's gun room with the lid replaced with glass! I thought about buying them for resale but talked myself out of it PDQ!

An importer friend in Tucson had stacks of cases of those MkII barrels.

Now on the "female handles, I am willing to send them to whoever wants one or more for just the postage. All my spare barrels have good handles.

Of course, Peter, you would have boxes of handles where you work. No doubt some of them might even have been used for firewood:D
I just meant the offer for some of us less fortunate folks who might have a damaged one.

I envy you working at a place where you can test fire lots of interesting toys at gubmint expense;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John Sukey

An importer friend in Tucson had stacks of cases of those MkII barrels.

Now on the "female handles, I am willing to send them to whoever wants one or more for just the postage. All my spare barrels have good handles.

Of course, Peter, you would have boxes of handles where you work. No doubt some of them might even have been used for firewood:D
I just meant the offer for some of us less fortunate folks who might have a damaged one.

I envy you working at a place where you can test fire lots of interesting toys at gubmint expense;)

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Tucson, my favourite place in the US, I was there for 3 months in 2008 working at Davis Monthan. If I get back, any chance of meeting up?

Cheers, Chris.

Don't forget that those Mk2 barrels were the basis for the later lightweight barrels. Remove and refit the flash eliminator and the Mk2's can be turned down and cut to length to give you Mk3 barrels. Good/passable if you have a needy Mk3 'LB' serial number gun.

I know someone will point it out, but I know it's not exact as the flash eliminators are very slightly different, but you'll have to be pretty astute to notice..............

Maybe the photo maestro KG could photograph a Mk2 and 4 barrel flash eliminators together for comparison.

As requested,pics of barrels/flash hiders (degrees are approx) -

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...fhiders1-1.jpg

ATB Kevin

Thanks for that camera maestro KG.

But forumers can see, that with a surplus of Mk2 barrels and shortage of Mk4 short/lightweight barrels (Mk4 barrels for the Mk3 gun don't forget.....) you could easily convert a Mk2 to a passable Mk4 spec.

Or, if you need one, an L4 look-a-like barrel if you're handy with a horizontal milling machine to make the flash eliminator body. The foresight block can be unbrazed from the old flash eliminator and replaced onto the new repro look-a-like. As we say... 'with a file and a hacksaw, anything is possible.....'

John Sukey - I recently found this forum while searching for info on Brens, to enable a semi-auto build on a kit I purchased. This kit came without a barrel, and the barrel I found has bad wood. The wood seems to be what I understand is referred to as "female" shape.

I have been a toolmaker and machine builder for several decades, and have experience with .50BMG rifles, as well as machining of .50BMG components for semi-auto conversions. I also have an extensive collection of special tools to facilitate work on my semi-auto pistols, such as delrin devices for securely holding slides without wounding them, for disassembly/assembly, driving pins in or out, etc. I would be happy to lend any tools I have (like a special jig for decompressing/recompressing the mainspring on a Remington Model 51, for cleaning/oiling/replacement) to anyone who thought they could make good use of them, or perhaps make one for someone who wanted to own their own. I work for free, because to me, workiing on guns isn't working at all - it's having fun.

If my email is not in my profile, let me know in this thread, and I will send it along, as well as my cell number for anyone who feels a personal conversation is a better way to explain what they need. Thanks for your time.

Jim

Just a thought toolman, but you could make yourself a whole lot of money for free by making parts that were made from unobtanium up until now. No7 rifle parts for example...............

I'm open to suggestions and reasonable requests. I work in a very gun-friendly environment, to put it mildly. We do have a couple of smaller (24x36 and 36x48) CNC machines, as well as a CNC lathe and a CMM. If anyone is interested I could try and put together a short list of my special tools available for loan, including such items as form-fit Luger barrel fixtures and auto pistol slide fixtures. Also have made unique tools to work on such things as 1917 Savage pistols (disassembly and reassembly of the bolt head), and a lot of High Standards (one of my passions). Also have items for working on Hi-Powers. I made myself a set of slim grips for one of my combat Hi-Powers, because, while I have large fingers, they're rather short, and with a normal grasp, I could touch the clip release, but not depress it (with the factory fat wood grips). Using my new micarta grips - which don't look too bad - which are flush with the frame sides, and secured with flathead socket head screws, I can now press the release as well, from a normal shooting grip. The clip safety has been removed on this one, to facilitate quick mag changes on the fly.

I have spent most of my life solving problems by dreaming up machines to take care of them, usually high-volume auto production pieces, and now in my old age (64) am having fun doing more of what I like to do and less of what I have to do.

Jim