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I can not find any information on this forum regarding the Enfield EM1 and EM2 280 Cal Assault Rifles. Given that the EM2 went into British service, have any of these interesting rifles made their way on to the surplus/collectors market?
Is there a MILSURPS forum re the EM2?
regards Paul
To say there's none out there would just be wrong, but I've never heard of it. There are several plus shooting quantities of ammo at Warminster in the UK small arms school. So told to me by the men that were posted there. I know things happen because I have seen one of the test FNs out of a batch of 3003 made and it resides in the small arms schoolin Gagetown N.B. Came from a small museum in Quebec. I saw a S&W light rifle 1940 in the PPCLI museum in Calgary in 1983 but it was hidden in their lockup never to see daylight. I saw an early M16 that was stolen from testing, no serial number stamped but it had been scratched in on the oppostite side. It had fibrite brown handguards and butt. It was in private posession. Are they out there? I just haven't seen one.
Jim
According to a copy of the registry put online by the Ottawa Citizen here in Canada, there are 5 EM2s registered in Canada, 3 to museums and 2 to individuals. They are listed as being made by Cdn Arsenals (who reportedly made 10 in 7X51), and all are shown as being in Ontario. I would not take the Cdn Arsenals thing as gospel, our registry is rife with errors; you don't get much for 2 billion (and counting).
We have several at Warminster and we do have a 'quantity' of ammunition which we share with Shrivenham.
Contrary to popular belief, only 60ish were ever manufactured in the UK. The issue of whether they were 'approved' 'authorised' or 'issued' is a moot point. All I can say, after having fired a few and dissected them is that we made the right choice by adopting the L1A1.
In truth, the mere notion that a soldier, however clever and mechanically literate he might be, could field strip and assemble the bolt of an EN rifle, then get it to work afterwards, is sheer fantasy.
When I look at an EM and an L1A1 side by side, as they are at Warminster, I realise that there is a god after all. Sorry EM...............
Peter, thank you for your information.
The small amount of secondary data available on the general internet holds the EM-2 up to be a great rifle that had it's introduction stifled by the USA not wanting to adopt a .280 cal as the NATO standard.
Your first hand knowledge makes the decision not to widely introduce the EM-2 seem more sensible - a rifle that cannot effectively be field stripped, quickly becomes a club. :bash:
Perhaps it is only selective memory that is now putting the EM-2 up as being a great design.
Referring only to the Kanadian CAL EM-2's, I can confirm handling nine of them in one place back in the good ol' days...Saint Tom of Dugelby (Peace be upon him) wrote the book.
I look at the EM rifles in the same way as, say, the DeLisle rifles. Something that has gone into history surrounded by an air of mystery and intrigue. Something that is slightly revered when looked at through rose tinted spectacles. But in truth, with your rose tinder specs removed, not nearly - or even remotely - as good as was lead to be believed at the time
Thank god for the Mk2S Sten and the L1A1. TRULY good at their jobs even without the benefit of those specs!
One EM-2 in Canada is of British manufacture and in 7.62 x 51. It was traded out of the UK some (MANY) years ago for a CAL 7mmHV model. They were made: the Canadian 7mm HV models by CAL and so marked. There are still some in the hands of private collectors however the only complete one in private hands was transferred back to the Canadian government as a gift in kind by a dumb a** well meaning collector some years ago. It was complete with the rotating optical/iron sight and Canadian Arctic trigger guard and was serial number 2. "We all grow to smart to late, to soon".
Anyone need a spare mag????
A NZ'er is, a this very moment, making up a set of CAD drawings of one of our examples. We've given him workshop access to strip/measure etc etc a 7mm version. Hopefully, in the not too distant future we'll hve a set of engrg. drawings........ won't we Bill from Christchurch?
Shooting-wise, they're a very 'boingy-boingy' sort of rifle in that you can hear the internal springs strutting their stuff, almost out of control each time it re-cocks.
As a bit of an aside, apart from the obvious bull-pup design/idea, can anyone think of any mechanical feature of the EM rifles that has been carried over to any of the later bull-pups? I can't........... but I'll strip one down again next week and have a good look.
On the subject of bull-pups. FAMAS.......... What is the idea/reason for the arm under the carrying handle that swings out left or right. It's not cocking or a grenade sight................... Any ideas?
Great thread
Bipod? (The long arm(s) that is.)
Nope! Good try JM but the bipods are each SIDE of the carrying handle, The pull-out lever I'm thinking of is about 4" long, rotates at the front end (close to the front end of the c/handle), is situated directly UNDER the carrying bit and swings out left or right.
Being sat at home on a wet miserable Saturday evening in Oxfordshire, just about to enjoy a curry and a few tinnies (Tiger Beer.....) I don't have a FAMAS with me at the moment!
The Canadian example of that would be the AVRO Arrow aircraft from the early 60s. The whole project was scrapped when still in it's infancy, and all existing examples were to be cut small enough to fit through a 1 meter square. Thanks to a few books on the matter in the late 70s, many of the Canadian public still quotes that the plane would have been modern even today. The thing was huge, and the bugs were still not worked out of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I suspect that I will now be flamed by the Canadians present for questioning one of the few Canadian icons that exist.
Mmmm, curry! Not much of that in the shop. (Beer is right out!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
My next WAG is that it detatches to become the grenade launcher sight, but having never seen a real one....
They have no bearing on disassembly, and there appear to be several variants w/o this feature, so it must not be all that "important".:rolleyes:
Only about 50 semi-autos sold in the US, and no transferable select/burst fire ones of which I'm aware. Could have bought one when they came in country, but I "figgered" that there would have been plenty- no need to be in a rush and all...
Apparently, no "detatch" is needed, just swing the arm out, roll the rifle on it's side, and do the indirect fire thing w/ the grenade, using the arm as the sight.
Hmmph!
Link to detailed pics (For computer game development apparently, but better pictures than I've ever seen on this rifle...)
[Photos] FAMAS F1 /!\ High res /!\ - Project Reality Forums
Stencollector, as much as I hate to say it, is right on the Arrow. It was a project still in its infancy, in quite a few ways. For one thing, the Arrow never flew with its Iroquois engines, so it was far from complete.
On the other hand, it DID break every record in the book, flying on half-power.
I have never had a chance to tear an EM-2 down and find out exactly WHAT is in its tender little guttiwutts but I do suspect that it might have been possible to make it a little easier on the troopies. Kar 43 is miserable, but it didn't have to be. I am TOLD that the EM-2 has a fair bit of Kar 43 in its ancestry..... so product improvement likely was possible.
But we will never KNOW until someone does it, will we?
Still, the ammo WAS a true assault-rifle round and NATO STILL doesn't have one of those, the .223 being more suited to gopher-hunting. Next NATO round will be whatever the USBO crams down NATO's throat, same as the last two.
If only RATIONAL heads would prevail.....
Just thinking (I do do things like that, sometimes), should anyone actually have access to an EM-2, would it be possible for them to strip her down and take a series of nudies for those of us who have only seen pictures of her clothed? THAT would be Enfield Porn of the highest sort!!!!
Every photo I have seen of the rifle has been assembled, else on the range, and there aren't all that many of those. I think some really good close-ups of the mechanical parts, and some from farther back, along with a series of stripping sequence shots, would be of great benefit to those trying to learn about this truly fascinating development. For myself, it is a tale from my early childhood... and it is a mystery as old as many of our members.
Perhaps time to clear some of it up.
I can hope.
Think more often! That is a grand idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by smellie
I believe that would be the emergency back up wine opener. :cool:
On question from Peter Laidler:Quote:
Originally Posted by AmEngRifles
On the subject of bull-pups. FAMAS.......... What is the idea/reason for the arm under the carrying handle that swings out left or right. It's not cocking or a grenade sight................... Any ideas?
I believe that would be the emergency back up wine opener. :cool:
By the way, there is a great little video on You Tube on the EM-2. I am not sure how to get that onto this post, but if you go to You Tube and look up EM-2, assault rifle, you should find it.
An interesting observation about the video is that when they show the rifle, doing a live fire demo, which includes a magazine change, it appears to have a barrel that abruptly ends just an inch or two in front of the forestock. That is in direct contrast to every other image of the EM-2 I have seen. Even the model that later comes out of the "sand test" has the original, longer length barrel. Wonder what THAT is all about? I thought it was just low quality video, but if you watch carefully, you will see what I am referring to.
Try this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtjVf724G7w
I know this has sort of died off, but I recently got in contact with a firm in the UK that can build you an EM-2, but there's a slight problem. The price that I was quoted was for the EM-2 was £12,000 - £15,000 - and yes, you can get a car cheaper than that! The firm I was telling you about is D & B Militaria. The two videos to have a look at are below:
- British EM-2: The Best Cold War Battle Rifle that Never Was - YouTube - history and disassembly
- Shooting the EM-2 in .280 British - YouTube - firing
Hope this helps guys!
That's very interesting, I thought they only dealt with deacs?
Are we taking inert or live and what caliber?
I remember Switzers auctions in Ont, Canada had a CAL made EM2 up for auction I think it went for $25,000. Unfortunately there auction house history does not date back that far anymore (at least online). Can't remember when the auction took place but it was at least 10 yrs ago. There is a CAL made EM2 serial #1 that the National Historical Arms Museum owns..in fact it's featured in this months issue of Calibre magazine. I think it may be the same one that was at Switzers auction. Swiss Rifles.com member Carlos diaopter has pictures of the Switzer EM2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stencollector
65 years old and tired how many of us own 100+ year old Lee Enfields that even though they may be a tad tired still could if pushed do the job sometimes progress has a finite use by date!
db told me hes got sect 5.......dos that cover to manufacture too ??
---------- Post added at 06:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:53 AM ----------
we should of adopted the EM2
As Peter has mentioned before, the design was still somewhat immature and over complicated. I am sure it would have come right eventually, but circumstances conspired against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by philb
However, thanks to Fn and and Commonwealth refinement, we ended up with the L1A1, the best service rifle ever.
I’m not sure D&B have the skill to build one, more like Dan knows a guy who can. They’ve had Welrods in the past and I think they also got some of the repro Delisle carbines.
The missed opportunity of the EM2 was the calibre rather than the rifle!
You sort of did in the SA80...Quote:
Originally Posted by philb
Very true Mick, they were really onto something there, an AR15 chambered in that calibre would be quite a rifle!Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangely Brown
I've had the privilege of handling and examining the EM2. its a very interesting design and shoulders and points beautifully. However, if you place one side by side with an L1A1 and compare the brilliant simplicity of the L1's working parts, its a no brainer.
I know of one EM2 in a private collection in Finland. No idea of caliber...