Printable View
Picked up a super nice unmolested low serial numbered A4 today from a friend of mine. All original finish on all parts, never been through the rearsenal. Early Springfield stock, correct Redfield mount with Kollmorgen scope and rings installed sometime around 1951-53, barrel dated 3-43, serial number 3,411,xxx This had to have come from a navy vessal I would think.
Very interesting. How exactly is the scope marked if i might ask?
Is there something about the piece that leads you to believe it was on a ship?
Regards,
Jim
Jim
The reason I think it was on a navy vessal is because of the immaculate condition. Its odd that this early of a gun would last 2 years on the field and still look this good. Most of the navy guns would sit in the ships armory and only come out from time to time. Almost all of the guns used in the field were rebuilt and thats why everyone you see on Gunbroker are parkerized. This one was never sent back in for a rebuild. All they did is upgrade the scope and rings as the gun required nothing else. Again this is my option of where it came from. I just cant imagine this being on the battlefield and retaining this condition for two years.
The scope is marked 4x and a 11934 serial number on the side. Around the rear optic it has Bear cub, Kollmorgen optical corp. Northhamton Mass, pat pending, made in the USA.
the scope and rings were likely added by someone other then the military,
the 4 power cub was made 1956-1959.
the Kollmorgan 4 power scope used by the military had target style turrets.
mostly used on M1 Garand sniper rifles for a short time as a replacement.
had the military used that scope on that rifle, they likely would have used the right hight rings, rather then grind a notch into the handguard.
a Weaver K4-60B would be a closer choice of a scope used during that time frame..
many A4,s were used by PD,s and other branches of the Gov, security forces, many had K4,s..im not saying that they didnt ever get a Kollmorgan, just doubt that they would use a Bear cub.
also, the base looks to be one made by the Lyman gunsight, as i dont see a R or Redfield..could just be the picture, rings are also made by Lyman.
heres a real GI issue Kollmorgan scope sitting on a Garand sniper rifle.
31, Thanks for the reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pickemup
Regards,
Jim
Chuck
You are correct on most of what you wrote no arguement there. But from 1951-1954 at the beginning of the Korean war the government had a non contract (procurement) from Kollmorgen for OD green finished 4x bearcub scopes. If you look in the standard catalogue of military firearms under garand variants the scope is there. Also the mount and rings are Redfield in the proper blue finish. The rings are the correct 26 mm. Also I not sure but Ive never seen elevated Redfield 26mm rings, thats probably why they ground a notch in the handguard. My buddy and a huge A4 collector has a variant just like this in his collection as well. This is a military variant early 50's.
the base, and rings should be parkerized. the 2 piece rings made for the M84 were supplied by Lyman, not Redfield, more missinformation from a couple books.
Kollmorgan marked Bearcubs were not made until 1956..
Kollmorgan Stith Bearcubs were made previous to that time..
Kollmorgan commercial scopes 2 2/4, 4 and 6 power were available in greygreen finish, that had nothing to do with a military contract.
Redfield purchased Kollmorgan in 1960, and used that design for many years after.
youll see tons of standard Kollmorgan scopes being sold as GI or USMC do to the grey finish,,even some with some nefty U.S. stamps on the turret caps, just isnt so..
for the record, all the real GI Kollmorgan scopes iv seen, pictures or with my own eyes are black in color, not grey, or green, some were even painted black over old black finish, and had no US markings.
the Kollmoran scope pictured on that Garand is the real deal...and the only one used by the military..no matter how bad we want those nice green grey scope to be GI,...they arent...
could they have been used by another branch of Gov? or state police? maybe.
for the record,
the barrel, receiver, base, rings, safety are the ONLY things parkerized, the rest of the parts will be black oxide finished,,,{blued}.
if your receiver, base, and rings are blued, it was done by someone other then the military.
Chuck
All my parts are either the correct black parkerized or blued. This gun hasn't been mess with. Early guns have different aspects than the later guns. I value your option and respect what you say. But im going to have to disagree on some of your points. Most of the information I get is from field armorers and vets and they have personal experience with these firearms. Your correct the stuff in the books aren't all correct and im not going by all thats in them. I will try to get more information on the scope but the bear cub was made before 56 thats one point i dissagree with.
It's a non-standard arrangement and outside the "normal" parameters for what is usually seen. That certainly doesn't make it wrong, but it doesn't make it right either. I can put blued parts back on any arsenal or field reworked item. I can swap and add scopes too. There is simply no way to know for certain whether this is "as issued" or subsquently made up since the items are not serial-ed to each other. What matters is that you are satisfied; and if the time comes, that the prospective buyer is also satisfied. I think in the case of the latter, a good number will be skeptical.
the phoshate used By Remington is Zinc Phoshate..light grey..
that info came from the man who was a manager at Remington during the time they made 1903A3,s and A4,s.
he lives in Fort Collins Co.
iv learned in the past..to never say never, even with scopes..
but.
what i stated about Kollmorgan, is a fact, on its production of scopes. and spot of with the dates.
Weaver M73-B1 would be the original scope used on that rifle,
Lyman AK variants.
M84, Libby glass company made.
and a stretch for the Weaver K4-60B would be acceptable for a 50,s vintage replacement.
id almost agree with the use of a Kollmorgan with target turrets.
great scopes, and just an early Redfield in my book..most the rifles i own have Redfield glass on them.
but the facts are...the scope thats installed on the pictured A4, is not likely a military scope..
and im ok if you dont agree...its your rifle, and you should like it just the way it is.
Arisaka
I totally agree with you and I know its not the norm. Im not trying to be difficult by any means. Its just weird my buddy has one earlier than this one in almost pristine condition with the same setup and done the exact same way. His rings are also blued. He states that the early rifles like these we seen leaving with blued instead of parked rings. He's been collecting for over 40 years and has been researching these from vets and armorers since then. I know theres variants of everything.
id almost bet, iv handled more 1903A4,s then just about any collector.
from the second A4 made still as new on display at the Remington arms museum.
to a late production A4 thats a 80 some od year old grandma was humping around a show, said here brother snuck it back from WW2..and basicly the only real bring back A4 from WW2 iv seen, the finish was as i said..
not a flame on your rifle. or your buddy..
but...its is as i stated...if your rifle has a black reciever and barrel, then likely its been refinished but somone other then the military.
as for the bases and rings.
all A4 military issue bases, original and replacement, made by Redfield or Lyman gunsight were parkerized light grey, some may look a little darker if they are new in the package, some may look lighter.. but they will be parkerized.
Rings..
all military issue rings.. for the A4. were parkerized..with an a maybe exception of the first 100 or so rifles..and thats a stretch, and those would be 3/8 once piece Redfield rings.
the 7/8 rings used for the post WW2 replacement scopes, were made by Lyman Gunsight, not Redfield.. someplace everyone started to just call em Redfield 2 peice rings, and it kinda stuck..i have had, and seen new in the GI box 7/8 rings made by Lyman gunsight, as well as new in the box GI bases marked the same.
and they were posted in pics on this and other forums, i think Jim or Mike has them or at least pictures of them as well.
they came in 3 hights just like rings today, low, medium and high, the A4 has to use the High rings, as the scope they were to be used for had a large eye cup, so that the bolt would clear.
if your rings are marked on the bottom of the twist dovetail 26MM then they are made by Lyman gunsight for sure, if not, they may be Redfield.
the screws that hold the rings together are color case hardened, and all GI rings, unless they were refinished at some time..then they could be parkerized.
now, keep in mind that rings may look darker then the base and the rifle as they are made from spring steel, and will will look darker.
all military installed bases will be staked in place, some will be hard, some wont, the windage screw will also be staked, as they were targeted before they were issued, only the left windage screw will be staked, the right will be free, so that the scope can be removed for service.
stocks.
the first 1000 A4,s made were issued with early type C stocks as Keystone didnt have stocks made yet for the A4, so Springfield supplied C stocks that had the bolt handle notch and handguard ring done by hand..they will have the RA FJA mark, and the subinspectors mark ahead of the trigger guard.
they will not have a flaming bomb at the tip and heal..only after Keystone started up did they make the A4 stocks in such a manner.
iv looked at hudreds of A4,s both in my hands, and in Museum settings, from every variation you can think of, from bubba sporterized, to new unfired, never issued.
i too have looked real hard at those nice grey green Kollmorgan scopes, and thinking man, that sure looks like a GI scope..when i fact, no matter how hard i wish it,,they just arent.
only the scope i posted a picture of would be a US Military issue scope, and they are very rare...
you can find a any of the Kollmorgan greygreen scopes for less then 150.00 pretty easy.
compared to 2,000.00 for a turret model, those prices should say something.
now,
if you had a M81 , M82 or M84??thats beliveable...
i know thats really not what you want to hear, but those are the facts.
FWIW, Stith Mounts of San Antonio, Texas was selected by the USMC to provide an improved telescopic sight for the M1C rifle. The Scope was the Stith 4XD manufactured by Kollmorgen Optical of Brooklyn, NY. The USMC designated this sniper system the M1952 and the scope and mount the MC-1.
The only published source i am aware of that suggests that the MC-1 Scope (Stith-Kollmorgen) might have been used on an M1903A4 is J.C. Harrison, "The Collectable '03" pages 170 & 233.
The rifle that Chuck depicted above is an M1952 with MC-1 scope and mount.
I note it has the late style flash hider. The one thing thats interesting is none of the USMC documantation that i have specifys the use of the leather cheek pad. (another minor mystery?)
The original Stith-Kollmorgen scopes had aluminum tubes, black anodized(harrison reports late production was gray/black)
they were marked:
Stith Mounts S.A., Tex
Telescope, Rifle 4X Double
Kollmorgen Optical Corp. Brooklyn, NY
Pat. Pend.
FSN 1240-6471106 US
Reportedly a Marine Corp serial number was also electopenciled in the side of the tube.
In 1956 Kollmorgen decided to market scopes under their own name. Stith scopes disappeared at about the same time. It is not known whether or not Kollmorgen remained a supplier to the USMC.
In 1959 Redfield aquired Kollmorgen Optical which became the basis of Redfield's scope business. It's also interesting to note that when the USMC updated their sniper system during the Vietnam war a Redfield Scope was selected.
As is the case with the Weaver K60B there were some rifles so equipped in government inventories. The quantities are very small and the details of how and why they came to be remain a mystery. Do they exist? - yes i have some of the serial numbers. Were they standard issue? - Nope! seriously doubt it.
Regards,
Jim
isnt that pretty much what i said?,,lol...
though i like Harrisons books..alot of missinformation is abound with his publications.
seemed if he wasnt real sure, he just made something up...
i see alot of that in his 03 book, and Carbine book.
31pickemup - First I'll say I respect your opinion (you typo'ed the word "option" instead of opinion..I think:confused:)Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pickemup
Anyway..You didn't post enough pictures for me to evaluate your rifle but I'll take your written word as accurate. "unmolested" and "never sent back for re-build". Not impossible but highly improbable IMO.
The scope & rings are a combination I've never seen before on a 1903-A4. Perhaps your opinion/therory are correct but again IMO improbable.
Unless I missed it you didn't say when your friend aquired the rifle or what documentation (if any) came with it.
I've read the entire thread series an some very knowledgeable folks have replied or commented on your post.
More pictures (detailed) of the rifle & scope would be helpfull!. At his particuliar point I would be inclined to think you recieved an exceptional DCM surplus rifle that someone added/changed out the scope/rings on.
Not a "flame"..just an educated opinion>
Pretty much just wanted to fill in a few blanks. :super:Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckindenver
Regarding JCH i get the feeling he relied extensively on cataloging observed samples or perhaps receiving information from trusted sources that wasn't exactly correct. Bu I agree he shows a lot of detail that others even some of the respected websites don't show. So i still use him just with care. :thup:
Regards,
Jim
31pickemup?
Jim and Mike are prolly the 2 guys i would go to, if i had a A4 that had me beat.
between the 2 of them, they do more research on A4 snipers rifles, then any one that iv met,
though we all miss things, and make mistakes from time to time.. i belive were spot on with this rifle..
agreed, more pics would help a better take on the rifle.
serial number, barrel date.. stock and markings, some better pics of the finish, ect..
were not flaming, only here to help you...